this post was submitted on 31 Aug 2026
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Electric Vehicles

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Electric Vehicles are a key part of our tomorrow and how we get there. If we can get all the fossil fuel vehicles off our roads, out of our seas and out of our skies, we'll have a much better environment. This community is where we discuss the various different vehicles and news stories regarding electric transportation.


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Determinants of electric vehicle emissions savings and costs across locations and individuals Marco Miotti and Jessika E Trancik*

Following is in video description by @MoneyShift

The most common argument against electric cars is that once you factor in battery manufacturing and lithium mining, they aren't actually cleaner. MIT tested that directly, and the answer is no longer ambiguous.

Researchers Marco Miotti and Jessika Trancik built a lifecycle model covering thousands of US zip codes, drilling down to individual driver behavior rather than comparing broad regions. They accounted for battery and vehicle manufacturing, fuel extraction and refining, regional electricity mix, local meteorological data, traffic density, trip length and duration, acceleration patterns, gas and electricity prices, and state fees. The study appears in Environmental Research Letters.

The concession first: building a battery is dirtier than building a comparable gas car, and an EV starts life with a larger manufacturing footprint. MIT states that plainly rather than working around it.

The findings: in most US locations, a battery electric vehicle reduces lifetime greenhouse gas emissions by 40 to 60 percent compared to a similar gas vehicle, with larger reductions in urban areas. On cold weather, MIT found that in a climate like North Dakota, efficiency can drop as much as 50 percent on a particularly frigid night, but the effect on annual emissions benefits is minimal. Miotti's own conclusion was that even in the most unfavorable conditions, EVs still reduce emissions substantially.

On cost, EVs are competitive with comparable combustion vehicles in lifetime ownership cost across most of the country, even without clean vehicle tax credits. Where electricity is relatively affordable, battery electrics tend to cost less outright. The study also found that individual driving behavior matters roughly as much as regional electricity mix, with the biggest reductions going to people who drive more, drive larger vehicles, and spend more time in traffic.

MIT also updated their public tool at carboncounter.com, where you can compare lifecycle emissions and ownership costs for nearly any car on the market.

None of this means you have to like electric cars. Dislike the steering feel. Dislike the brake feel. Want a manual. Those are real objections. The emissions one is finished.

Car news the way Doug DeMuro, Jason Cammisa and Chris Harris cover cars, every day

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[–] MalReynolds@slrpnk.net 12 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

TLDR: Cars still bad. EVs less so, but still significant CO~2~ contributers (better in places with more renewable).

[–] Canconda@lemmy.ca 15 points 2 days ago (3 children)

I've always been more about electric trains and busses than electric cars.

[–] grue@lemmy.world 5 points 2 days ago

And bicycles (e- or otherwise, but kinda especially e- because they get more people doing it who wouldn't have considered it before).

[–] quick_snail@feddit.nl 3 points 2 days ago

Especially when they are grid tied, so no big batteries

[–] ObscureOtter@piefed.ca 6 points 2 days ago

https://www.carboncounter.com/

For anyone who wanted to click the URL in the OP.

[–] Bluescluestoothpaste@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 day ago (20 children)

Better than getting a hundred thousand miles out of a used gas car?

[–] mrgoosmoos@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 day ago (2 children)

I don't have any sources, but I have looked into this a bit in the past because this is exactly my situation — driving a piece of shit into the ground

while when I looked into this in the past I was unable to find (or at least remember) conclusive evidence that a new EV is better than using something that already exists, it was at least on par. I think my difficulty with remembering the outcome was which studies factored in what things, so the takeaway I actually remember is just that an EV is probably better and definitely not worse than continuing to drive and old IC vehicle

in my case because I don't drive a lot and I want to pay very little for my vehicle, I decided to not get an EV and instead buy a used pos that's slightly less of a pos than my other car which will be retired to the scrapyard soon. if I drove daily, I'd be a lot more inclined to buy an EV (both for operating costs and environmental impact).

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[–] Kangae_Hishiryo@scribe.disroot.org -4 points 1 day ago (7 children)

I'd say that hybrid cars are better though, because they're presumably (?) cleaner to produce than fully electric ones, but also cleaner to drive than fully gas ones; although Idk if I'm missing something, anyways.

Or an even better option: scooters go brrr.

[–] Kangae_Hishiryo@scribe.disroot.org -1 points 1 day ago (3 children)

PS: Ngl, what I'd actually LOVE to see are for example hydrogen cars.

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[–] bridgeenjoyer@sh.itjust.works 5 points 2 days ago (3 children)

Isnt used still better than both? The work has already been done to make the car.

New cars are rolling spyware you can't repair and will never own. I'll be fixing old cars until its impossible.

[–] yessikg@fedia.io 9 points 2 days ago (4 children)
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[–] Canconda@lemmy.ca 7 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (2 children)

No cuz electric cars are still more carbon intensive to build than combustion cars... driving the EV is what offsets it in the long run, meanwhile driving the combustion engine does the opposite. Especially given how older cars are less fuel efficient.

[–] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

No cuz electric cars are still more carbon intensive to build than combustion cars

That's not actually true. There is one Volvo white paper everyone quotes and no one actually reads, they compare an EV to ICE and conclude EVs take more carbon.*

*When you exclude the motor and transmission from ICE.

There is so much selective math and confidence bias in these papers. They calculate every fart from everyone who works in a lithium mine, but gasoline just appears in a fuel pump.
When does the press refer to oil extraction as "mining"? , why do they ignore how much energy is takes to refine petroleum?

From Alberta oil sands, it takes ~1,000 cubic feet of natural gas + ~24 litres of new nonsaline water to make a single barrel of extracted oil, which is then sent to a refinery which uses more energy, plus we have to move all this oil around on cargo ships, tankers, trucks...

[–] bridgeenjoyer@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 days ago (3 children)

But by reusing I'm saving all the factory materials and labor to build another car. Reduce...reuse..

[–] bstix@feddit.dk 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

It makes the most sense to compare the cars by the lifespan of the car rather than who happens to own it at any given point.

If you sell an old ICE car thinking you're doing something great for the environment, you need to consider that someone else is going to buy it and drive all the remaining miles out of it anyway. Unless you send it to the scrap yard.

If you buy a used car, it simply means that the seller bought a new one instead of you doing that.

So by all means, buy used if you want to, it makes a lot of economic sense, but in the grand scheme of things, the only thing that matters to the environment is which vehicles get produced to begin with. So it's out of your hands unless you order new cars before they're produced. Once it's been made, someone will drive all the miles that it was produced to drive.

Now it might seem logical that repairs could offset the production of new vehicles, however with the difference between EVs and ICEs being soo large over time, it still makes the most (environmental) sense to buy a new EV instead of keeping an old car on the road.

[–] Bluescluestoothpaste@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

the only thing that matters to the environment is which vehicles get produced

We can also produce fewer

[–] bstix@feddit.dk 2 points 1 day ago

Yeah the best option is to live close to stuff.

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[–] ogy@fedia.io 6 points 2 days ago (1 children)

no. I've seen recent studies that showed that driving your existing petrol car or buying used is still environmentally worse than getting an electric car. Not to say that I'm buying electric - I can't afford it.

  • I won't be searching for this to prove you wrong. you made the claim, so the burden of proof is on you.

  • I can't comment on repairability nor spyware, as I have no idea

[–] ltxrtquq@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Studies show that although EVs produce more carbon emissions when they are manufactured, they are responsible for much lower emissions when they are being driven compared with a petrol or diesel car. Overall, the whole-life emissions for an electric car are almost 90 per cent lower than for combustion engine vehicles.

“We found that in the vast majority of cases, and even for a brand new gas vehicle, you would be far better off scrapping the gas vehicle and switching to electric,” says Campbell. “It takes more energy to build an electric vehicle, but the savings from driving the vehicle swamp all the upfront costs.”

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2583523-its-good-for-the-planet-to-scrap-a-new-petrol-car-and-buy-electric/

July 7, 2021 - Reuters analyzed data generated by an Argonne National Laboratory model to determine at what point a typical electric vehicle (EV) becomes cleaner than an equivalent gasoline car in terms of its lifetime carbon footprint.

Based on a series of assumptions, the data showed that a Tesla Model 3 in the United States, for example, would need to be driven for 13,500 miles (21,725 km) before it does less harm to the environment than a Toyota Corolla.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/lifetime-carbon-emissions-electric-vehicles-vs-gasoline-cars-2021-06-29/

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