this post was submitted on 11 Dec 2025
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-46
Average convo with liberals when Ukraine comes up (lemmy.ml)
submitted 1 week ago by bubblybubbles@lemmy.ml to c/memes@lemmy.ml
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[–] hamid@crazypeople.online 5 points 1 week ago

And people say there is never white on white crime LOL

[–] MyMindIsLikeAnOcean@piefed.world 4 points 1 week ago (2 children)

This “meme” pretends to be nuanced…but it’s simple: it attempts to boil the crisis down to “America bad”.

Russia has agency. If you’re a leftist who supports Russia…and I know it’s common…you’ve completely lost the plot. You’re basically so anti American that you’ve overshot the mark and are supporting other fascists.

At risk of also oversimplifying things: Russia/Ukraine isn’t good v bad…it’s fascist capitalist v “liberal” capitalist.

[–] culprit@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 week ago (2 children)

it’s fascist capitalist v “liberal” capitalist

This is correct but probably opposite of how you think it is.

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[–] Amnesigenic@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 week ago

Your mind is like a puddle

[–] pineapple@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 week ago (3 children)

Are people here pro Russia taking over Ukraine here?

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Marxists tend to critically support Russia over Ukraine here. Russia doesn't want to "take over Ukraine," it wants the 4 oblasts and Ukraine to be demillitarized. Donetsk and Luhansk both have been at war with Kiev since 2014 and voted to join the Russian Federation, and the far-right Banderites that siezed power in the 2014 Euromaidan coup have been heavily millitarizing and oppressing ethnic Russians. Ukraine serves a similar geopolitical purpose for the US Empire as Israel, it's a heavily millitarized anti-communist country surroundrd by geopolitical adversaries.

[–] MyMindIsLikeAnOcean@piefed.world 1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

There’s a lot of problems with your reply.

You can’t say Russia doesn’t want to control Ukraine and reconcile that with the fact that Russia previously had puppets controlling Ukraine.

You can’t seriously believe that Russia holds fair elections.

ETA: if the conflict was just about protecting supposedly majority Russian areas on the Russian border, I would expect Russia to have intervened directly in those areas to “liberate” them, like we saw in Crimea (which is also dubiously majority Russian). But what we’re actually seeing is an imperialist cassis belli that’s contradicted by the fact that it’s mostly Ukrainians themselves fighting, even if armed by allies.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 week ago (22 children)

Yanukovych was not a puppet. The IMF loan came with stipulations requiring austerity, the Russian loan did not. Secondly, Russia is intervening directly in the Donbass region. It isn't dubious at all that Crimea and the Donbass are heavily Russian, they were added to Ukraine only a century ago.

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[–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 week ago (8 children)

that’s contradicted by the fact that it’s mostly Ukrainians themselves fighting, even if armed by allies.

Which Ukrainians?

  • The oligarchs running the state?
  • The Banderite fascists?
  • The eastern & southern Ukrainians, who, after the Maidan coup, declared independence from an unelected government, and were subsequently terrorized by the Banderites for nearly a decade, with tacit and overt support from the Ukrainian and US governments?
  • The western Ukrainians who want the war to end?
  • The men being kidnapped off the streets and pushed to the front lines against their will?

 
Previously: If not for the US/NATO, this war wouldn’t have happened in the first place.

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[–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 week ago

Previously:

Honest question from a non-communist, based on your reply here. Does one need to support Putin to be a Marxist?

In a word, no. In a few more words, support for Russia (not Putin, as historical materialists don’t subscribe to great man theory) is only a partial, temporary, tactical one, in the context of imperialist liberation. Russia is still a capitalist state, though, so it’s a two stage strategy: first liberate colonized bourgeois states from colonizer states, and second revolution within those liberated bourgeois states.

Russia is an interesting case: it has already liberated itself from the post-Soviet “shock therapy” neocolonizers. This occurred during Putin’s administration, which is why he is especially hated by the US. So now the support for Russia is in the context of keeping the colonizers from recolonizing it, and supporting Russia to the extent that it helps other states liberate themselves. But Russia isn’t trying to “liberate” Ukraine, at least not all of Ukraine. It’s trying to resolve the genocidal attacks on the people of the Donbas, and it’s trying to resolve the imperialist military expansion at its border.

Previously:

Previously:

NATO expansion:

 
NATO in general:

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