this post was submitted on 05 Jan 2026
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the remaining differences are mostly about aesthetics and not about the use of violence to maintain hegemony

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[–] Juice@midwest.social 7 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Its more like a coin with liberal values on one side and fascism on the other. And when we hold it up to look at one side and describe what we see to someone with different beliefs, all they see is the other side.

[–] DeepSpace9mm@lemmy.ml 10 points 2 months ago (1 children)

For clarification's sake, the coin is capitalism.

[–] Juice@midwest.social 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Hm, I'm not sure. I was thinking more like this post was a piece of propaganda or discourse, so the coin would also be a piece of propaganda.

I think part of the problem in our analysis is a problem of abstraction. Capitalism is actually the treasury that mints the coin, the social relations that turn the coin into profit. But it's true that the appearances of capitalism is fundamentally different than its actual function.

I like the comparison of chattel slavery as a contra example. Chattel slavery was an institution that was morally reprehensible, even to the founders of the US. It shocked the conscience of virtually anyone who considered it (although a good lesson in social humanity is the tendency to just not consider it, as a defense) meanwhile it was true that some slaves lived somewhat better cared for materially than many white workers, whose destitution was necessary to uphold the practice of mass subjugation of the slaves. The severe cruelty of the ownership of one person over another somewhat hides the material reality of slavery. The historic matetial basis for the abolition of slavery was the fact that northern industrialists were better at getting more labor our of workers and paying them an individual wage much less than the cost of maintaining the life of a slave, which often included the old and young who could not work.

On the contrary, capitalism has all the appeals of freedom, democracy, self a actualization, when it is actually itself a form of part-time slavery. We consent, via contract, to sell our time and energy to a boss who pays us a wage that is worth less than the commodities that are produced using the tools the boss "owns".

Liberal ideals give rights to everyone on paper but capitalism denies rights to most people in practice. The capitalist state manages the political contradictions that arise, since the cold industrialized reality that pits worker against owner is fundamentally unstable. A middle class is an ideological project that stabilizes the contradictions, splitting the masses of people between a mass who aren't willing to give up their individual privileges even if they hold " liberal" values, and the masses who are so exploited they lack the time and energy to fight for the liberation of all workers. All these groups are split further, of course, along lines of race, gender, etc., the illusions are sustained by having people's direct experience contradict narratives of oppression and resemble the liberal values that capitalism heralds.

The two sides of capitalism are, objectively, the exploited workers and the owning capitalists. That relation is the base, but the superstructure creates the illusions and social relations that facilitate the base.

Back to the coin, the two-sidedness of the discourse can be expanded to practically any polemic, propaganda, rhetoric, etc., so that only one "side" of the coin is apparent to the people on each side of the discourse.

How this relates to the original meme, as leftists we can see our side of the Maduro discourse, we see the fascism of red and blue MAGA, but they don't see that part even when they express views that are objectively fascist. Their side of the coin doesn't have a coherent perspective on what fascism even is, they arent able to self-criticize in a way that shows them what we see.

So the coin as an objective thing works better as an allegory for a piece of propaganda rather than the thing itself. Once we start considering the actual qualities of the people who hold certain views, and how this all relates to production of capitalist relations among the masses, I think the example starts to fall apart since it deals with individuals projecting our desires and expectations, which are based on feedback we get from an objective system whose essential nature the system has to hide from those of us the system exploits.

Sorry got carried away there, I appreciate your context because it opens up the subject quite a bit more than my comment did.

[–] DeepSpace9mm@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 months ago (3 children)

Please don't apologize. I was going more for the "social democracy is the left wing of fascism" point. I was thinking of the sides of the coin as being the ideologies of each, not necessarily their version of the propaganda in the meme. I particularly enjoyed the way you reiterated your point in the paragraph beginning "How this relates"

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I told you about the West, America in particular. I told you about these spineless, self-centered, hedonistic nihilists. I told you, bro. 😕🤷

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