this post was submitted on 21 May 2026
56 points (79.2% liked)
Memes
55837 readers
941 users here now
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
founded 7 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Communism is good, and necessary.
Both communism and capitalism led to famine. I.e the great leap forward
The thing is, if you take control of an area known to have regular famines, and then another famine happens under your control, and then never again...
You have in fact ended the famines
Communism led to the elimination of famine in areas where famine was historically common.
The 1930s famine wasn't a genocide, but yes, this was the last major famine outside of war time in a region where famine was common. Collectivizing agriculture and advancing in industrialization ended food insecurity.
No, it was not. Once discovered that a famine was occuring, the soviets did what they could to prevent and alleviate it once it had started. The idea of an intentional famine is simply fringe among contemporary historians, same with claims of white genocide in South Africa. For example, serious bourgeois academic sources tend to say it was a failure of planning, rather than intentional and genocide. For instance, Mark Tauger wrote:
Tauger believes it was a failure of economic policy, not an intentional attack on ethnic Ukrainians. The 1930s famine was a combination of drought, flooding, and mismanagement. Further, the Kulaks, wealthy bourgeois farmers, magnified matters by killing their own crops in the midst of a famine rather than letting the Red Army collectivize them. The Politburo was also kept in the dark about how bad the famine was getting:
From: Archive of the President of the Russian Federation. Fond 3, Record Series 40, File 80, Page 58.
Excerpt from the protocol number of the meeting of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist party (Bolsheviks) “Regarding Measures to Prevent Failure to Sow in Ukraine, March 16th, 1932.
Letter to Joseph Stalin from Stanislaw Kosior, 1st secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine regarding the course and the perspectives of the sowing campaign in Ukraine, April 26th, 1932.
Letter from Joseph Stalin to Stanislaw Kosior, 1st secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine, April 26th, 1932.
Muggeridge and Jones reported on the famine. Völkischer Beobachter reported on it as intentional, and then spread the story around further. Why would the soviets try to starve their own people? It was because of the soviets and collectivization of agriculture that famine was ended, and that's why outside of wartime the 1930s famine was the final famine in those regions, with life expectancies doubling.
Overall, trying to hold on to red scare historiography does absolutely nothing to help the cause of socialism. The soviet archives have provided a wealth of knowledge largely affirming the communist narrative, and debunking liberal and fascist narratives about existing socialism.
Further, the Ukrainian nation was supported by the soviets, to the point that they were often accused of being biased! There was no Russification, instead the soviets promoted a Soviet identity alongside national identities, to protect the identities of the nations while also unifying them.
Returning to the 1930s famine, as I showed above the Central Committee was kept in the dark by the Ukrainian communists as to the famine. They tried to save face by telling the Central Committee that everything was fine and under control, but this was not the case. Drought, flooding, and kulaks burning their crops and killing their livestock as protest against collectivization had destroyed output, and the soviets were still exporting grain in order to trade for industrial equipment with the west (which is what the west wanted in exchange for industrial equipment).
Upon learning the truth of how bad it was getting, the Central Committee was furious. The officials responsible in Ukraine were held accountable, hundreds of tractors and other farming equipment was directed to Ukraine, as well as ~17 million poods (~14ish kg/pood) of grain were redirected towards Ukraine. The Central Committee had been deciding policy based on the reports they were recieving, and these reports were falsified to protect the Ukrainian communist party leadership.
Had famine been the goal, no aid would have been given at all, or perhaps token aid. Sending hundreds of millions of kg of grain to Ukraine is no petty tribute, and punishing Ukrainian party leaders that lied and facilitated famine was the correct course of action for such treason. Counter-revolutionary is correct! They had put their own skin above the peasantry.
In all of this, there was absolutely no reason to have intentionally created a famine. The USSR needed grain for industrial equipment and to feed its people, it would not have sabotaged output deliberately. On top of this, there was existing accusations of the soviets overly supporting Ukrainian national identity, Lenin had given them the Donbass region and in an effort to overturn the Tsar's oppression the soviets highly valued national identity and self-determination.
There is no real evidence of deliberate starvation or creation of famine. All that exists is evidence of tragedy, weather adversity, class conflict between kulaks and the peasantry, and mismanagement in part by the Ukrainian communists and in part caused by disinformation fed to the Central Committee, which changed how they treated Ukraine. Again, they needed grain for industrialization, which they saw as necessary for defense (and this was proven correct as the rapid industrialization in the 20s and 30s is what enabled soviet victory over the Nazis in the 40s).
Raphael Lemkin was a Zionist all his life
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14623528.2017.1349645
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/problems-of-genocide/many-types-of-destruction/0C2D5A99FDE59DC3912A148C23A7678E
The famine during the great leap forward wasn't due to communism though? It was due to China being a backward country thanks to the century of humiliation (caused by capitalism) leading to lacking the necessary technical knowledge (there's a reason it was the last famine China ever had).
It was a rapid industrialization attempt by the CPC
Ah I didn't realise industrialising was a communist policy or that industrialising caused famine.
The actual reasons for the famine in reality were natural causes mixed with agricultural plans made with poor agronomic knowledge due to the backwardness of the country coming from the century of humiliation and a degree of poor reporting tradition held over from the feudal and landlord years.
None of these are "communist policy".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Red_Banners
This was directly linked to the great leap forward
Please actually read what I'm saying. I'm not denying famine happened but the actual causes were not issues with communism or even related to communism but a mix of natural issues and hold over problems from the preceding years that left the country lacking agronomic knowledge and with a tradition of poor reporting to please feudal lords and landlords due to risk of retribution rather than convey accurate information.
Also you should avoid linking NATOpedia it only serves to demean yourself.
The century of humiliation did play a part in it, but it was also a direct reaction to Soviet development polices and of the single party state. Also wikipedia is reliable and it doesn't worship N.A.T.O as you believe
I have seen them cite Radio Free Asia on multiple occasions. Alongside Epstein island visiting Ghislaine Maxwell best friend Sebag Montefiore also famous for lying about viewing soviet archives. If that's what you take to be reliable then honestly wow I have no words...
Word salad. The industrialisation was but again industrialisation doesn't cause famine generally.
The 3 core factors were natural events, lack of knowledge due to backwardness, and poor reporting traditions.
And again none of these 3 things are communist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources
They pushed for the creation of people's communes during the great leap forward. Which directly contributed to the famine.
"The early 1950s saw the establishment of agricultural cooperatives, yet these changes brought mixed outcomes. However, the push towards rapid industrialization and the establishment of people's communes in rural areas were central to the Great Leap Forward, reflecting the government's belief that collectivization and large-scale projects would boost agricultural and industrial outputs. The communes were meant to centralize farming and labor, supposedly leading to increased efficiency and output; still, in reality, and practice, these measures often disrupted traditional farming practices and led to decreased productivity. Dali Yang stated, "The initial stages of collectivization brought chaos and inefficiency, with agricultural productivity often declining"."
And since communes were meant to be a form of collectivization. The communes were infact communist
The fact you link Wikipedia to talk about how Wikipedia is reliable is genuinely amazing. "The CIA is so trustworthy they even told me themselves how they only use the best sources"/s. Entirely unserious person.
Again the communes were not the issue communal farming works as shown by it working post famine the issue was the implementation of new farming techniques while lacking the necessary agronomic knowledge to effectively do so. This failing was then worsened by natural disaster and poor reporting tradition as the actual material driving factors of famine. Have you considered actually thinking before posting?
Again what they say about themselves is irrelevant. The fact is they constantly cite RFA, scumbag frauds like Montefiore and other entirely unreliable or dare I say dogshit sources. The fact they say they really don't doesn't change that.
What do you think lacking agronomic knowledge means? Are you a complete fucking idiot or have you not been reading what I've been saying?
And still this is meaningless words salad that says nothing about what actually caused the famine. Which was again lacking agronomic knowledge, natural disaster and poor reporting traditions.
What do you think leads people to promoting anti intellectual policy? Maybe the fact they lacked the knowledge to promote effective policy at the time due to the country being mostly made up of illiterate peasants? How are you this much of an idiot? Do you not think anything through before you post?
So inefficient it brought the USSR from backwater to superpower in under 50 years and did the same for China. Ronald Reagan is that you?
And again we're back to lacking agronomic knowledge etc etc. 🤦♂️ 😮💨
I understand you have an ideological conviction and years of western chauvinism that are forcing you to try twist this but genuinely the levels of idiocy you are going to is amazing.
Can it be called anti intellectual by not having the necessary knowledge?
The sparrow thing was a fiasco but was based on something no? They had a hypothesis and test it.
Honestly I don't think the semantics of it are overly important is it technically anti intellectual if you simply don't know better probably not but was the wide roll out without real testing anti intellectual possibly, but in the end it all comes down to the 3 core factors which were the natural disasters, immense lack of agronomic knowledge, and poor reporting traditions what exactly you call them is not as important I think.
Regardless of what Wikipedia says about itself, it favors imperial core perspectives, firstly because English-language Wikipedia is dominated by editors of the Five Eyes states, but also because of its funders and leadership.
Meet Wikipedia’s Ayn Rand-loving founder and Wikimedia Foundation’s regime-change operative CEO
Does your vague snark have an actual point?