this post was submitted on 20 May 2025
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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 36 points 2 weeks ago (5 children)

The distinction between Marxists and the anarchists is this: (1) The former, while aiming at the complete abolition of the state, recognize that this aim can only be achieved after classes have been abolished by the socialist revolution, as the result of the establishment of socialism, which leads to the withering away of the state. The latter want to abolish the state completely overnight, not understanding the conditions under which the state can be abolished. (2) The former recognize that after the proletariat has won political power it must completely destroy the old state machine and replace it by a new one consisting of an organization of the armed workers, after the type of the Commune. The latter, while insisting on the destruction of the state machine, have a very vague idea of what the proletariat will put in its place and how it will use its revolutionary power. The anarchists even deny that the revolutionary proletariat should use the state power, they reject its revolutionary dictatorship. (3) The former demand that the proletariat be trained for revolution by utilizing the present state. The anarchists reject this.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/ch06.htm

[–] geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

What does "Commune" entail in this context?

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 22 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

A Commune, in Marxist-Leninist theory, is a revolutionary political-economic structure where the proletariat collectively owns and democratically controls the means of production, abolishing capitalist hierarchies and bourgeois state machinery. It is rooted in the analysis of the Paris Commune of 1871 by Marx and Engels who saw it as a prototype of proletarian dictatorship. The key aspect of a commune is that it embodies direct workers' democracy, dismantling the separation between state and society. Lenin further expanded this as a transitional framework where a decentralized network of soviets composed of laborers self-govern, eroding class distinctions and advancing toward a stateless, classless communism.

[–] geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

Are there any examples of this 'late stage Communism'? I thought it was more about the central planning aspect. And if not are the USSR/China/Russia even Communist?

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 22 points 2 weeks ago (28 children)

Late-Stage Communism must be global, so no, it hasn't existed yet. The USSR and PRC are examples of Socialist countries governed by Communist parties trying to bring about Communism.

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[–] MnemonicBump@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

This is all so wrong. First of all, most anarchist advocate for prefiguritive politics, or "building a new world within the shell of the old" which is why things like Food Not Bombs exists, along with many many other anarchist projects specifically aimed at building a stateless, moneyless, classes society. They don't NOT want to simply abolish the state completely overnight.

Anarchists have come up with a WHOLE lot of ways that a society could be run, and they generally don't think that there's a one size fits all solution that would work for everybody.

You haven't read a single thing about anarchism that didn't come from a Marxist source, have you?

[–] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 19 points 2 weeks ago (10 children)

There still has to be a point where there is a state and then a point where there is not. Are you advocating for seizing control of that state before it seizes to exist, or does your political program want to stay outside of the state until the state stops existing?

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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 8 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

The fact that anarchists can't agree on a unified course of action is a big part of the reason why all these different ways of running society that people have dreamed up remain firmly in the realm of fantasy.

[–] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 10 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I'm not an anarchist but in their defense, while anarchism proper has never had lasting success the Zapatistas are much less centralized than other socialist experiments and have taken a lot of inspiration from anarchist principles. Left unity should mean that we take an earnest and good faith approach to learning about what we have in common, not just seizing any opportunity to dunk on the other "team."

Also, even MLism still recognizes that different contradictions demand different approaches. Marx doesn't prescribe a one-size-fits-all approach either. For some revolutions the right move is a guerilla struggle. For others a general strike. For others it's about landless peasants doing protracted struggle. So on and so on.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 14 points 2 weeks ago (18 children)

I generally agree that there's no one size fits all approach. However, any effective organization needs to be grounded in material reality. Discussing concrete examples of organization like Zapatistas is useful because they are achieving something tangible, but saying that people dreamed up plenty of ways to organize society is not very useful of itself.

[–] comfy@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

There are at least six feuding Marxist orgs where I live, I don't think this is a valid critique of anarchism.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 10 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Sure, in initial stages you'll have many different orgs. This was the case during Russian revolution as well. However, eventually a single unified vanguard emerges and people get on the same page regarding how to move forward. There is no mechanism for creating a unified vanguard under anarchist approach where there is no central authority by design.

[–] comfy@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 weeks ago
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