this post was submitted on 21 Jul 2025
762 points (94.5% liked)
Memes
51680 readers
1507 users here now
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
founded 6 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Oh yeah, by all means, cite the peer reviewed biology papers showing that Great Man Theory is Evolutionary Biology, because, yes, "it's evolutionary biology!" Is the number one catch phrase of people spouting baseless pseudo science.
You setup the strawman that I claimed it was Great man theory.
I specifically stated it wasn't Great Man throry but you continue the strawman because you have no argument.
A cult leader isn't a Great Man as described by Carlyle.
No, what I said is that it is Great Man Theory. And it is.
But I'm putting that all to the side, I want to see the sources for your scientific claims before anything else.
I specifically said the forces that result in a Hitler aren't the same as the cult that developed after the fact.
You want me to prove a negative.
As to the evolutionary basis of tribalism, I guess you don't know how to Google "evolutionary basis of tribalism" so here are some links:
https://sumananthromaterials.blogspot.com/2022/08/tribe-in-evolutionary-scheme-of-social.html?m=1
https://www.australasianleadershipinstitute.com/blog/Origins-of-leadership-from-tribal-chiefs-to-ancient-rulers.html
https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/henrich/files/richerson_henrich_2012.pdf
1st link is about 4 different types of tribe structures
2nd is about leadership and its relation to tribes
3rd link literally runs counter to your initial point about trump cults being a result of human nature, it actually fucking argues that a society is shaped by material conditions but without using the term "material conditions":
By the same logic, "Trump cultists", as you refer to them, do not stray far from your average liberal because it's also within the liberals' human nature to be apathetic towards brown kids, women and unarmed men across the planet to explode into pieces, not because trump supporters and liberals that don't like trump optics have a vested interest in maintaining status quo..
See how ridiculous that sounds?
Nobody fucking argues this way because human nature isn't something that's scientifically grounded, but rather it's a metaphysical expression of our being weaponized by libs like you.
If you're going to roleplay being an intellectual, at least do a better act of reading the stuff that you cite in relation to the points you make, otherwise @BrainInABox@lemmy.ml might bite π».
Don't care, already said I'm not interested in Motte-and-bailly. I'm waiting on biology citations for you specific claim. So no "By the same logic", that's not how biology works.
People aren't robots made to exact specifications in a factory. There are both evolutionary and environmental factors that affect human behavior. Among a population there will be different genetics and different environments (which includes social factors).
The link you highlighted doesn't refute my position that Tribalism was created through evolutionary pressure. Your highlighted text supports the claim.
Your premise that people are wonderful caring humans is false. The majority voted for Trump. Explain it to me.
Don't weasel your way out and change the subject.
This is your position and this is what I was addressing:
This is your justification to that position:
You are suggesting that we as humans are hardwired to support the most popular individual and that anything eventful that happens is attributed to that one single individual (this is what Great Man Theory is), simply because as a result of evolution and somehow that's compared to tribes that lived 300,000 years ago, when hunting and gathering and grouping up was a necessity to ensure higher chances of survival. None of the links you provided back up that point, the hill you wish to die on, neither does your justification make any sense. I explained that these links only serve to describe and analyze tribes, not prove the Great Man Theory.
But you know what is a death cult?
Liberalism. Liberalism is a death cult. And you're part of it, engaged in it, succumbed to it and running cheerleader for it, because it serves to benefit you, Trump, Biden, Bernie, Rubio, Team Blue, Team Red, the full works.
Human nature, again, is also not scientifically grounded. Any argument mentioning human nature necessitates an actual scientific study on human nature itself, lucky for you, there's no such a thing. Here's another video explaining why it's a thought-terminating cliche.
I don't take it you're a reading type because obviously you did not read any of the sources you linked, otherwise you'd know that none of these actually say anything about human nature in relation to cults or tribes or whatever, so watch these from start to finish, you'd stand to actually learn something, lib
I did not suggest that and refuted it many times!
STOP STRAWMANING.
That was not your position, stop lying
You replied: "Pure Great Man nonsense."
It's a non sequitur!
I didn't even suggest that Trump was a leader who got to power because of his abilities.
I then said this for clarification:
Which is literally Herbert Spencer's critique of Great Man theory!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_man_theory
Yet you keep arguing!
I'm not sure why you are trying so hard to deflect any criticism of Trump into a societal problem. Trump isn't blameless. He has agency.
What you said is:
And you justified it by claiming it's "evolutionary biology". Substantiate that claim.
Evolutionary justification for cults:
https://csuepress.columbusstate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?params=%2Fcontext%2Ftheses_dissertations%2Farticle%2F1356%2F&path_info=best_2018.pdf
Cults tend to die with their leaders. I've listed many of the cults that died in this thread. Cults surviving the death of their leader is the exception.
Dude, who are you expecting to buy into this...
You asked for sources and I gave them. You lost and you've been outed as a Trump apologist.
Lol. Come on now.
Evolutionary basis of cults:
https://csuepress.columbusstate.edu/context/theses_dissertations/article/1356/viewcontent/best_2018.pdf
Source that cults fail after their leader dies:
The People's Temple (Jonestown)
Heaven's Gate
The Branch Davidians
Children of God
Order of the Solar Temple
Aum Shinrikyo
Modern Cults that survived their leader's death:
Mormons and Scientology.
Those are literal cults, not cults of personality. Trump supporters aren't living with him in a compound, genius.
And that paper isn't about evolutionary biology anyway, stop just linking whatever and hoping no-one checks
Cults aren't defined by people living in a compound.
The paper referenced evolutionary reasons for cults.
Fucks sake. What are you trying to accomplish here? Everyone can see you're just behaving in bad faith
You threw out the term Great Man theory without even understanding it.
I've refuted every single argument with sources and you keep arguing.
I stated the fact with sources: Cults have an evolutionary basis I stated the fact with sources: Cults tend to die when the leader dies.
You have nothing in reply.
I believe you push Great Man Theory into arguments even when it doesn't apply to absolve Trump of any responsibility.
Again, what are you trying to accomplish here? Nobody is going to miss your obvious bad faith.
You keep claiming bad faith when I addressed your arguments directly.
I think outing a Trump apologist is useful.
Lol, you people really are parodies of yourself
Literally no one mentioned tribalism before this, please no Motte-and-Bailly arguments, I want to see the biology papers for the specific claim you made.
I did. You wanted me to prove that great man theory was evolutionary Tribalism which I not only didn't say but specifically refuted.
What the fuck is your problem? You aren't happy being right in an argument.
No, either provide your source for your claim or withdraw it.
Withdraw what? You confused Tribal leadership with Great Man theory.
Prove that Tribal leadership has no evolutionary basis or withdraw your claim.
No, no Motte-and-Bailly. Source your actual claim
I said this:
"The forces that create the environment for a Hitler to come to power are different than the personality cult that develops after the person is in power."
Which is literally Herbert Spencerβs critique of Great Man theory!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_man_theory
I also claimed that tribalism has evolutionary roots. You need a source for that?
No, you didn't. You claimed that MAGA will die with trump because evolutionary biology. Source that claim