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Games

Welcome to the largest gaming community on Lemmy! Discussion for all kinds of games. Video games, tabletop games, card games etc.
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- !gaming@Lemmy.world: Our sister community, focused on PC and console gaming. Meme are allowed.
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One of mine died day before yesterday, had to buy a cople of new 8tb wd purples to rebuild a new raidz. 200 euro a pop, so painful. Almost 3 years ago i paid 300 euros for 3 8tb wd reds. The price increase has been devastating.
If capitalism works, we'll start to see competitors enter the market and prices would go down.
If capitalism worked.
Edit> In case it was lost, I changed tense in my second sentence because I know capitalism doesn’t work and only has ever served to make the rich even richer.
The problem is it's not quite so easy.
If this was making things like cars or toilet paper, where the design and manufacturing methods are well understood, that's exactly what would happen.
Making computer chips was well understood. You take a slice of single-crystal silicon, dope its surface with something, use a photo mask and a light to etch off the doping where you don't want it. Repeat that process a few dozen or a few hundred times to etch transistors into the silicon, then slice it up into chips and package them.
Machines that do this are readily available.
The problem is, we made those transistors smaller. And smaller. And smaller. And smaller. And smaller.
Then we ran into problems like how to etch features on the silicon that are smaller than the wavelength of light. And we found solutions to that. And so we made the transistors smaller. And smaller. And smaller.
So now to create a current-gen computer chip, you need a process called EUV- Extreme Ultra Violet. Red light has a longer wavelength than blue light, so when you want smaller wavelength to etch smaller features into the chip you eventually go from red to blue to ultraviolet and eventually to extreme ultraviolet. Problem THERE is there's no EUV bulbs available, and if there were they'd be useless because atmospheric air absorbs EUV, and even if you do it in a vacuum glass absorbs EUV too so lenses don't work. So you can only manipulate this light with mirrors, which have to be ground to an absolutely insane level of precision.
The resulting machine is quite impressive. You have a giant cavity kept in perfect vacuum. In one side you have an EUV source- that's a little machine that dispenses a tiny 3-micron droplet of molten tin. As the droplet falls it's hit by a laser to blast it into a pancake-like shape, then by another much bigger laser that vaporizes it. In the process of vaporizing it releases EUV light. So by blasting 50,000 droplets per second, you have a mostly continuous EUV light source. This light is reflected by shaped mirrors carved into the surfaces of the vacuum chamber that reflect and focus the EUV into a linear beam. Below that (also in vacuum) you have the mask and the silicon wafer, and by moving them back and forth under the beam you etch features 'smaller than light' into the chip.
The result is a chip with current pathways less than 100 silicon atoms wide. And if you want to make current-gen computer memory, that's the only way we've got to build it.
EUV machines are pretty much only made by one company, ASML. They're the size of a double decker bus, they cost a fortune ($200MM+), and they're in insanely high demand. Like I've heard of a guy getting hired by a company for over million a year simply because he's friends with a purchasing manager at ASML and might be able to get the company that hired him a build slot.
And it's not just buy the machine and hit 'start', there's a ton of other stuff involved. You need machines to make the photo masks, you need an ultra-clean cleanroom, you need a robotic facility where cassettes of wafers can be whisked from machine to machine with no exposure to even clean room air. And this is all highly specialized stuff, you don't just call 1800-fab-4you and place an order.
Bottom line- even for a company that already has experience in current-gen chipmaking, setting up a fab like this costs $15-20 billion. And it isn't just 'sign a check and come back tomorrow', the process of building a fab from the project being approved to the first wafer coming off the line is 2-3 years minimum.
Now here's the bigger problem- semiconductors are always a cyclical market, or at least always have been. Demand (and thus prices) goes up, demand/prices come down. So if you invest $20 billion when prices are high, then in 2-3 years when the cycle is at its low nobody's gonna be buying your output. And of course, adding more chips to the market will affect market prices (supply and demand). So companies that are building fabs have to look 5-10 years ahead to determine if they'll get ROI on a fab before they build.
And that brings us to the next issue- with AI, we're in uncharted territory. The computing market has been pretty well understood since the early 90s. There's demand for PCs and laptops and servers and gadgets, and it goes up and down and new products come out that changes the mix of what's ordered, but the cycle more or less continues. Up and down.
Then AI happens. And suddenly we have near-instant, unheard-of levels of demand. And it's all for current-gen top-shelf stuff- HBM (high bandwidth memory) and GPUs and specialty silicon like NPUs.
Now there are more fabs being built. But it's also starting to be better understood that AI is a bubble, which almost certainly will pop. So if you're a DRAM maker and you spend $40 billion building a fleet of new fabs and then the bubble pops, you're gonna be fucked. That's why you don't see everybody+dog diving into the DRAM market face first.
This could be an opportunity to arrive at a more sustainable baseline for personal computing, assuming it's any easier to manufacture components along the lines of those that would have been made a decade ago. Computing power in the mid to late 10s was absolutely sufficient for modern use. Even going back a bit further, it's not so much of a backslide.
The market needs to build its mid-range.
That's probably the best comment Ive read so far on all of Lemmy, thanks!
definite best of material, if that community exists
Most welcome :)
This was a very interesting read, thank you!
Most welcome :)
Just to add, since I didn’t see you mention it: even when you build a fab from scratch and know what to fabricate you need to find and hire people with the “know-how” on how to set the processes up.
Even if it worked it wouldn't. Neoliberals and free-market advocates will tell you that competitors would rise up if there were no regulations.
But some industries (like silicon and microchips and other advanced tech) are just impossible to breakthrough without years or decades of setting up and operating without profit vs current players.
And those current players, given no market regulations, will still use their money to do anything possible to stifle upcoming competitors or buy them out.
The dream of capitalism was born pre industrial age, under models of "apples sold at the farmers' market".
The reality is we have advanced a lot and need mixed economies to keep things fair for most people.
Prices going down from competitors is a capitalism lie which occurs sometimes.
It's pretty accurate, AI and every other nonsensical idea in the IT world is making everything worse because all the big bosses want to see AI take off.
Baby Boomers destroyed the world and hated the Internet Gen X and the very oldest of millennials want to see AI take over.. They're now aware that AI will take their jobs too.
Gen Z and younger millennials are using AI daily.
I am 37 years old, I work in IT support.. I know now to Google things, I know how to talk to people.. So I don't need AI.
Yes yes I'm very very aware how great AI is for science and medicine.. I'm not in either of those fields so I don't need AI.
I have some news for you, here is a real story.
I'm a programmer, a pretty good one, I have built real products worth millions of dollars and I'm doing alright. I'm no rockstar, I'm no pundit.
I have a raspberry pi connected to a touchscreen I use for home automation, it's a nice little home IT project, I don't really spend a lot of time on it. It's a hobby and something to walkthrough/demo/make available for the kids to hack on.
I wanted to tighten up the install, get automatic updates running, get it in full kiosk mode and add a couple features. Nice little Saturday project, figured it take a couple hours on the outside, hardest part would be mapping the touchscreen again.
Claude did it for me in 20 minutes. So I got to spend an hour and a half thinking of features I wanted to include, pretty great for me! Pretty great for IT! Need doesn't enter into it.
Maybe not great if your boss is a pinhead.
I've been saying for a while, IMO the thing with AI is that it is actually pretty useful in certain circumstances. The problem I think is, we've taken something that's a handy tool and blown it up to world-altering proportions. This has also made everyone very polarized - there's the camp of "It's going to take over the world and do everything" vs. the camp of "I can't wait for AI to go away" and I don't think either of those will fully happen. I think when the dust settles it'll just be more of a correction back to where it should have been in the first place, which as I say is more of just a handy tool in the toolbox.
I think some of it is how you apply it personally too. Like I'm an arts person, but I don't let AI do any actual art stuff, because that's what I want to do. What I think it can be useful for is all the paperwork like grant applications, form letters etc. AKA the sort of mindless paperwork clutter that doesn't need a lot of brain power but still needs to be done and eats up time. I'm fine to let AI do that stuff, so I can spend more time doing the actual art myself.
There’s NO WAY I could have got Proxmox running my HomeAssistant with voice pipeline, plus PiHole, plus Tailscale & RustDesk all running on my NUC without Gemini. The number of copy-pasted commands is frankly staggering. I’m learning Linux, but the number of things I’ve been able to do is staggering compared to where I’d be on my own.
That's actually really cool. All I can think of with AI is how many of the users I support are going to start throwing critical, private customer data into it asking for a recap.. Completely unaware of how it's going to store that data
At this p;oint if I go to a site and they have an "AI Chat Assistant!" pop up I send them a "support" message telling them that I will not be purchasing from people who contributes to the bubble that is driving up costs for components.
I just did that for an MP3 player, why the everloving frak they need an AI assistant to give me a "compare" feature that's been on commercial sites for decades...
At what point do we start making the factories ourselves? No really if ddr3 is significantly going up would it make sence for all these smaller companies to pool thier resources and start fabbing thier own chips?
unfortunately chip foundries take years to set up (just filtering the air alone takes months), so it's not really a solution - although china is attempting to do exactly this.
"It's hard work and it takes too long. China is trying to do it "
2 years later and after China has done it, "why are the chinese taking the lead on all of this? we should be doing things more like China."
Sorry, I was perhaps unclear - China is and has been setting up chip foundaries regardless of the global memory prices, simply to have domestic production of those components. Production of memory modules during this period of AI ratfucking is just a happy bonus.
Yes because they have an autonomy incentive, but "our" (as in Western capitalism) incentives is solely on profit and profit is being done, therefore we will never solve this because in fact there's no problem. We are being mocked by all these PC parts suppliers.
I don't think you're wrong, I'm just not sure how it relates to what I said.
Nobody (aside from China, for purely geopolitical reasons) really wants to invest billions of dollars in a multiple years long process that could be instantly undermined by the popping of the AI bubble.
This level of demand is not sustainable, and the big tech companies know it.
Earlier this month, research showed that memory prices are predicted to rise sharply between now and 2027, with no reductions expected until 2028. Now, Valve has shared its own view of the hardware market, and it's equally glum.
That's not really a position new to this month.
Glad I stocked up on all my gaming hardware before all these price increases. I don’t see the need to upgrade anything for quite some time. If the hobby stays expensive in 5-7 years I’ll likely just downsize to a single ecosystem instead of having them all.
I luckily stocked up on storage before the prices got crazy so I'm good there (although my RAID is gonna have to sit unfinished for a while), but I didn't upgrade my RAM when I should have.
I am in the same boat. I have 28TB of storage, but I am sad I didn’t buy more. I will be hoping that these drives hold on until the prices return to semi-normal.
I stayed on AM4 and DDR4. I have been getting the absolute most out of that socket. Same B450 motherboard and swapped out my 3600 for a 5800x3D when prices were dirt cheap for that chip. I won’t upgrade until it dies or I can’t run the games I want anymore.