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From Janeway, Picard and Sisko to modern Star Trek: what happened to the ethical future we were once asked to imagine?

I have been watching Picard, and I am genuinely surprised by how much the ethical structure of Star Trek has changed.

I am not talking about nostalgia, and I am not saying that characters should remain exactly the same for thirty years.

I am talking about something much more fundamental.

TNG, DS9 and Voyager were built around an ethical premise that, for me, was one of the strongest elements of Star Trek:

THE END DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS.

This principle appeared again and again.

Characters could make mistakes. They could become angry, afraid, traumatised or confused. They could even cross ethical lines.

But the line existed.

And when they crossed it, Star Trek stopped and examined what that meant.

That was the difference.

The characters did not simply ask:

Can we do this?

They asked:

Do we have the right to do this? What will this choice make us? What responsibility comes with the power we have?

Voyager is probably the clearest example.

They were trying to cross an impossible distance to return home. They could have justified almost anything through survival.

But they did not.

Again and again they accepted a longer journey, greater risk and personal sacrifice because reaching home could not justify destroying another civilisation, exploiting another species or abandoning the principles they represented.

That was not weakness.

That was the entire point.

Humanity had evolved technologically, but Star Trek proposed that perhaps we could also evolve ethically.

And this is where I struggle enormously with Picard.

Picard himself feels fundamentally different.

The Picard I knew could certainly be wrong, but his reasoning had extraordinary internal coherence. He questioned himself. He debated. He understood that being captain was not simply having authority — it was carrying responsibility for how that authority was used.

The new Picard often feels reactive, impulsive and strangely ineffective.

For me, that is not simply “an older and more vulnerable Picard”.

It changes the architecture of the character.

And Seven of Nine is even more difficult for me.

Seven was one of the characters I identified with most.

Her journey in Voyager was not simply about becoming emotional or “more human”.

It was about learning how to be human while maintaining discipline, logic and integrity.

She struggled with identity, belonging and emotion, but what made her extraordinary was precisely her effort not to become governed by impulse.

She could be wrong. She could be severe. She could misunderstand human behaviour.

But revenge was never the foundation of the character.

Her relationship with the Doctor was particularly important because both of them were learning what humanity meant almost from the outside. Their logic often exposed the inconsistencies of ordinary human behaviour.

Now I find Seven driven by anger, punishment and revenge.

At times she feels closer to a Klingon archetype than to Seven of Nine.

For me, this is not character development.

It is a different character.

And the change goes beyond Picard and Seven.

The entire universe feels different.

The older Star Trek made an extraordinary effort to maintain coherence.

Character coherence.

Ethical coherence.

Political coherence.

And even scientific coherence, as far as science fiction could reasonably achieve it.

Of course there were mistakes across hundreds of episodes, but you could feel that the writers cared about the rules of the universe they were creating.

A decision made years earlier could still matter.

A species had a culture and internal logic.

Technology had rules.

Characters carried the consequences of what they had experienced.

And most importantly, Star Trek was never simply fantasy in space.

It was asking something.

What could humanity become if we improved?

Not if we became perfect.

If we improved.

What would happen if curiosity became stronger than conquest?

If responsibility became stronger than ego?

If knowledge created an obligation rather than simply power?

If we learned that having the ability to do something did not automatically give us the moral right to do it?

That was what made Star Trek different from ordinary science fiction.

It was not the Enterprise.

It was not warp drive.

It was not aliens.

It was the idea that the future could contain people who had learned something that we still struggle to understand today.

I started watching Star Trek when I was around 18, and this philosophy genuinely influenced the way I grew up.

I saw many things I already believed in expressed in a more evolved society, and it made those principles feel possible rather than naïve.

Responsibility mattered.

Integrity mattered.

The method mattered as much as the result.

The end did not justify the means.

DS9 challenged this perhaps more

  1. JANEWAY — Caretaker THE COST OF DOING WHAT IS RIGHT

“I’m not willing to trade the lives of the Ocampa for our convenience.”

JANEWAY — CARETAKER 70,000 light-years from home. The easier way home would cost someone else their future. She refuses.

  1. PICARD — I, Borg POWER DOES NOT CREATE THE RIGHT TO USE IT

Caption:

PICARD — I, BORG He could destroy the enemy that once destroyed him. Having the power does not give him the right.

  1. SISKO — In the Pale Moonlight WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE END DOES JUSTIFY THE MEANS?

Caption:

SISKO — IN THE PALE MOONLIGHT He crosses the line — and he wins. The episode is about the moral price of that victory.


JANEWAY I will sacrifice our advantage rather than sacrifice them.

PICARD I will not become my enemy in order to defeat him.

SISKO I crossed the line to save millions — now I have to live with what I became.

When did Star Trek stop making the moral cost the story — and start treating moral compromise simply as character development?

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[–] daychilde@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago (2 children)

I enjoy Strange New Worlds for the most part, and most of the recent series I think I like better than the loud complainers (nothing wrong with that, mind)… I think what bothers me more than the end-means problem is that it seems like everyone talks endlessly about whatever the current crisis is, and the talking seems to 1) not be interrupted by the critical time of the crisis and 2) do most of the problem solving. As in, they stop the action, take time to talk it all out, and then do whatever magical thing magically fixes the problem that we will never see or hear of ever again. It all works out perfectly, and everyone's emotional needs are met. (except where they're trying to create ongoing drama otherwise).

I guess it would make for a boring show if crises happened as quickly as they do IRL, and if repairs took as long as they would IRL, but I think they've gone WAY too far the other direction on being to talk their way out of any crisis (with a little exciting shaky-camera thrown in)

[–] 7of9_99@startrek.website 4 points 1 day ago

Yes, I think this is part of the same problem.

Talking was always central to Star Trek, but the dialogue used to build the solution. It clarified the ethical problem, the scientific constraints, the risks and the consequences. You understood why a decision was made and what it would cost.

Now, too often, the talking feels detached from the actual mechanics of the crisis. Everyone processes the situation emotionally, then a solution appears, works almost perfectly, and the consequences disappear with the episode.

For me, the issue is not that they talk too much. It is that the reasoning no longer feels structurally connected to the outcome.

Old Trek could spend ten minutes in a briefing room, but by the end of those ten minutes you understood the problem better.

That made the resolution feel earned.

Now it can feel as if the emotional conversation is the resolution. ...

[–] Digit@lemmy.today 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I enjoy Strange New Worlds fo

I've never managed to get that far. Because (like is stated and elaborated upon in the original post)...

The entire universe feels different.

Breaking coherence very early on in the first episode, to such an extreme, I cannot bring myself to carry on watching. It's like someone forgot the brief on what and who Vulcans are, what their culture's like, and did not pass it on to writers, directors, nor actors.

[–] daychilde@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago (2 children)

I can understand that. It didn't bother me as much. The singing episode I skipped large parts of (although they actually had an in-universe explanation, I still rolled my eyes so hard they hurt for a few hours).

I think, for the most part, that they sort of have captured some of the more classic Trek feel, but...... specific things might bother specific people, e.g. you and the Vulcans. So I wouldn't encourage you to take another look because it'd annoy you. heh.

But.... I stuck with Discovery. I liked some of what they did, disliked a lot, but it ended up mostly alright, except for the whole emo-talky thing on crack.

I think I might not be a hardcore Trek fan, though. I tend to prefer my sci-fi a bit harder (The Expanse was GREAT - books and show; growing up I read lots of Asimov. And Heinlein and the other classic era authors, but Asimov was my favorite). With the exception of Andor, while I grew up adoring the original three, I hated the prequels, was fine with the sequels, and have been meh on most of the other media (baby yoda was fun but the series got old imho) - with the exception of Andor which I think it one of the top shows of all time ever in any genre. heh.

I'll probably watch just about any new Trek series. I like enough about most of them to overcome any things I dislike. :)

But I can totally respect a viewpoint like yours.

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[–] ValueSubtracted@startrek.website 12 points 1 day ago (3 children)

Do you have any particular examples of the "the ends justify the means" attitude you seem to think is so prevalent now?

[–] 7of9_99@startrek.website 7 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Yes sure a lot and a lot.... but Seven is the clearest example for me.

In Voyager, she repeatedly learns to restrain impulse, revenge and Borg-style utilitarian logic in favour of individual rights and ethical judgement. In Picard, she becomes a vigilante and ultimately kills Bjayzl out of revenge even after Picard explicitly challenges that choice. ... she changed is nto mroe seven of nibe and all the character behind...

More broadly, Picard normalises extrajudicial violence, revenge and “necessary” moral compromise much more than TNG/Voyager did. My point is not that older Trek never crossed those lines . DS9 absolutely did. The difference is that older Trek usually made crossing the line itself the ethical problem of the story.

That distinction matters to me: not “nobody ever does wrong”, but the narrative still knows that the means require moral scrutiny.

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[–] becausechemistry@piefed.social 9 points 1 day ago (6 children)

Enterprise got pretty rough in seasons 2-3. But that was a reaction to 9/11 and yeah a lot of people kinda had their minds broken by that.

And even then...they got there in the end. It was rather the point of the arc.

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[–] BlueOysterCultist@lemmy.zip -2 points 1 day ago (5 children)

Doesn’t NuTrek glorify Section 31, which is basically just that?

I always think about that TNG episode where the enterprise comes across that phase shifting technology but ultimately destroys it since it’s too close to stealth tech.

NuTrek would probably use it to 9/11 Romulus’s sun’s core and wipe their home world out just to stir up drama. I think the second part was a plot point in Picard so it wouldn’t be hard for them to insert either lol

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[–] usernamefactory@lemmy.ca 7 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

I found Picard to be the most poorly written of the modern Trek series, with some great ideas wasted by haphazard and shoddy execution, but:

Season one ends with Picard convincing Soji that the safety and freedom of synthetic life is not worth welcoming entities that would destroy organic life. Instead she’s working towards peace and understanding in season 2.

Season two charts a redemption arc for no less than the Borg Collective, very much following up on the themes of I, Borg.

Season three shows the result of Section 31’s “ends justify the means” thinking during the Dominion War: enduring hatred leading to the infiltration of Starfleet and near destruction of the Federation.

It’s not well executed, and there is certainly plenty I disagree with, but I think for the most part Picard aligns with the principles you’re talking about.

[–] 7of9_99@startrek.website 1 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

I don’t actually think Picard arrives at the same ethical conclusions.

The synthetics are a good example. When they decide to activate the beacon and call for help, Picard’s response is basically to stop them and offer to take them away.

Old Picard, to me, would first have changed the perspective of the question: does a persecuted minority have the right to ask for protection? If yes, from whom? At what cost? And what happens if that protection destroys another population?

That is where the real Star Trek dilemma would have been.

Not simply “don’t call them, come with me,” but a confrontation between rights, fear, survival and consequences, until the most ethical solution possible emerged.

That is why I don’t think the destination is the same. The old Picard was not looking for the solution that worked for him. He was trying to understand what was right beyond himself.

That difference is exactly what I miss.

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[–] justlemmyin@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago (3 children)

There is a season 3 of Picard???!!!

I stopped watching somewhere midway season 1 coz it was so stupid... But, they made 3 seasons! Dafuk.

[–] usernamefactory@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 day ago

They're all pretty bad in their own ways, but they're also all a better send off to the TNG era than Nemesis was. So, personally, I'm glad they exist.

[–] Klear@piefed.world 3 points 1 day ago

I watched the first season and I loved it! The story, the characters...

Wait, no. That was Mass Effect.

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[–] yyyesss@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago
[–] Isa@feddit.org 7 points 1 day ago (1 children)

My guess? In short? The people, who first made up that future and that quest for humanity are now called woke antifa sympathisers or worse. Todays filmmaker have other dreams, where the end does justify the means and so on.

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[–] sad_detective_man@sopuli.xyz 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I remember in TNG when their stance on Palestine and then violent resistance changed. Was kind of cool seeing the process of the writers coming around on a political stance

[–] 5too@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Could you elaborate? I grew up on TNG but wasn't really aware of the conflict at the time, so this went right over my head

[–] teslekova@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Take a look at the first appearance of the Bajorans, as opposed to how they were presented later on. That is one example. There are also a few "oppressed populations choose violence" stories in the early seasons where that is considered simply wrong, as opposed to some in later seasons where it is treated with nuance.

It's not a one to one, but it is indeed interesting to watch, as OP said.

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[–] sad_detective_man@sopuli.xyz 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

Exact same thing happened to me. I made a post about it during my rewatch this summer. They've probably made references to it before TNG but the first one I saw was S3E2, where a planet is given to a civilization through peace accord and the Enterprise must convince the native population to evacuate.

S3E2 is very against the two state resolution, seeing the new arrival culture's claim to the planet as nonnegotiable and the native population's decision to resist violently to the death as misguided, though relatable. Data subverts their attempts at resistance while Picard uses political maneuvering to buy them more time to evacuate and avoid extermination.

However S5E3 introduces Esign Ro who is a Star Fleet criminal assigned to aiding Picard in resolving a conflict between the conquered Bajorans and their Cardassian occupiers. Star Fleet is technically neutral in their conflict but functionally complicit by aiding Cardassia to honor peace accords. Ro is intentionally set in the center of the situation because an admiral in Star Fleet knows that her involvement will cause Picard to reexamine the situation and possibly cause Star Fleet to change their stance on the conflict.

By the end of TNG Ro has been exonerated of her previous insubordination, helped broker new more beneficent treatises with Bajor, but still defects from Star Fleet to aid dissident Bajorans even violently against Star Fleet in S7E24 in their fight to resist Cardassian occupation. Though opposed by Picard with this, she leaves with Ryker's blessing and the narrative of the story asserts she is right for this. She's probably my favorite character besides Jean Luc, definitely worth rewatching TNG for. Obviously devisive, however.

Then there's the film Star Trek Insurrection where the ENTIRE Enterprise crew just goes "FUCK IT, I'm tired of these mothafuckin apartheids being upheld by this mothafuckin Star Fleet" and Picard leads the whole cast in open rebellion on the side of a occupied planet against an oppressive regime who uses legal sanctions and preference by Star Fleet accords to obscure a genocide it's perpetuating on a sister nation. The two nations are revealed to be only recently split, some individuals are reconciled, but mostly Picard and the gang blow them up.

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[–] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Look I'm foursquare against dumbing things down just to satisfy folks that don't like to read, so take this with that in mind.

That was the proverbial wall of text I couldn't make myself finish. Too damn many paragraph breaks. Some are welcome, as I deal with dyslexia and separation can help with that. But the single line paragraphs was just intolerable. Again, I'm long winded and totally get the need for extended writing to carry a point. But you gotta learn how to format better

[–] dkppunk@piefed.social 2 points 1 day ago

Honestly same, I couldn't get more than a few sentences into this post, the formatting is horrible. I read a lot and the disjointed single sentence paragraphs lost me.

[–] sportsjorts@lemmy.zip 1 points 23 hours ago

Really enjoyed this post.

[–] thezeesystem@piefed.blahaj.zone 2 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Old trek felt more competent, trusting of each other, asking should we do this? Will it harm others? It was inspirational, a future where we could talk and try to help each other and learn and grow.

Current trek feele more anti human, more drama, more attacking each other, more shit going on.

Old trek they actively had a problem and trusted each other and told each other and listened. New trek doesn't understand that concept and nobody seems to trust anybody anymore.

I believe the reason is always comes down to capitalism. They want more views more money and giving people a vision of the future without it is anti capitalism, they don't want that.

I just enjoyed the old shows better because they where compet, trusting, caring and more loving and understanding of others and there differences.

Now it's just drama and subtle or overtly anti Difference, mainly because the giga corp making it wants us to fight each other instead of making a better world.

This is just my thoughts and feelings of the shows. And don't be a dick and say "oh what about this one episode!". I'm talking it as a whole, not a single shit episode I the whole series

You talk a lot about trust, and I think that's an important factor. Sure, you can argue that the shows' utopianism changed entirely because the powers-that-be warped the messaging. That's probably true too, certainly now with the Ellisons at the top. But that's pretty recent.

I think there's also an aspect of how much viewers would be able to suspend their disbelief if they were served '60s or even '90s era scripts today. Especially TNG was very diplomacy focused and based in mutual respect. My guess is there has been an erosion of trust in Western society in the meantime. Again, ultimately because Capitalism, I'm sure — but in a broader sense than I interpret from your comment?

I dunno, I don't have a neatly wrapped theory about this. Sorry if I go completely off on a tangent based on your comment.

I think the first season of Discovery tried to earnestly grapple with real world politics through the whole Klingon war/Mirror Universe arcs. All of Picard seemed to be about conspiracies and shadow governments, which certainly also speaks to its time of production... while dulling the shine on the utopian vision for the future.

And it's not just badmirals and Section 31 that have been at issue. We've seen plenty of disgruntled pirates (read: regular-Joe capitalists) turned terrorists in the eyes of the Federation. Our main casts have visited enough dystopian "slum" planets in the past ten years, where criminals organise and prosper, that the idealism of Star Trek is depicted as precarious.

Way out in the 32nd century, as Osyraa bites into a Federation-produced apple, admiral Vance comments that "it's made from our shit, you know". Way to sell post-scarcity, buddy. Nobody wants to know how the sausage is made. I think the past decade of Trek has done a good job of postulating soft values, standing up for minorities and diversity. It's been pretty shit (to stay in the vocabulary) at representing the very foundation of that sort of tolerance, though.

Trek should be a means to imagining the end of Capitalism, even if only as a background note for all kinds of weekly weird encounters and philosophical twists. But that is not just hard to depict in the 21st century — it's actively being played as downright unsexy in the shows.

[–] 7of9_99@startrek.website 1 points 1 day ago

Exactly. And I would go even further: trust in old Trek was not sentimental or naïve. It was the consequence of ethical consistency.

The writing was so coherent that, in several stories, a character behaving differently was itself enough to suspect that something was wrong — that they had been replaced, possessed or manipulated. The audience knew their moral architecture that well. Certain choices simply would not have belonged to that person.

That is how strong the character writing was.

Now characters can suddenly act against values built over years because the plot needs conflict, and we are asked to accept this as “more realistic”.

I don’t.

For me, it is weaker writing and a poorer idea of humanity.

Old Trek imagined trust as something civilisation could actually achieve: people listened, reasoned, shared a problem, challenged each other and still trusted the other person’s integrity. Ethics was not separate from competence — it was part of competence.

Modern Trek often replaces that with suspicion, trauma, aggression and interpersonal conflict. That may resemble us today, but then what future are we actually imagining?

If centuries of progress give us better technology but essentially the same ego, distrust and emotional chaos, then the utopian idea has disappeared.

And perhaps that is the real issue: we have become so accustomed to cynicism that ethical coherence now looks unrealistic.

To me, that says more about our present than it does about old Star Trek.

[–] haywire7@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Some of what you are saying is explained in the show, the universe they are in changed. Picard kept trying to do the right thing whilst others just reacted or took the easy way out and it kinda broke him a bit.

Seven saw a different side of the universe in the nigh on lawless frontiers and on top of that saw friends hunted for who they are and logically decided that she would be shit to people that didn't deserve her time or empathy.

The knee-jerk reactions to the androids (anything synthetic in the end) and the Romulan crisis pushed the characters to their limits, way out of their comfort zones and part of the show is them trying to get back some of what they lost or thought they'd lost.

Maybe I'm being generous in my interpretation but the fact it's open for discussion is a good thing.

[–] startreksce@lemmy.today 0 points 20 hours ago

The knee-jerk reactions to the androids (anything synthetic in the end)

Which is kinda what we are seeing right now in Lemmys attitude with AI. In the future, a lot of Lemmy posters are definitely gonna be on the android/synthetics hate-train.

Not me though, because I love modern tech. :)

[–] 7of9_99@startrek.website 0 points 21 hours ago

But that is exactly my point: this is where “the end does not justify the means” disappears.

Old Trek never said trauma would not change you. Picard was assimilated, violated and used by the Borg to kill thousands. In First Contact that trauma turns into rage and revenge , but the story stops him there. Lily confronts him, he recognises what he is becoming, and he changes course. His trauma explains the reaction; it does not automatically justify it.

Janeway does something similar in Equinox: desperation and anger push her too far, Chakotay challenges her, and the story makes that loss of perspective visible.

That was the point of the evolved humanity Star Trek imagined: not people without trauma, anger or fear, but people trying not to let those things decide what is right.

So saying “the universe became harder, therefore Picard and Seven became harder” is exactly what I am questioning. If circumstances are allowed to redefine the ethics, then the end has started to justify the means.

Old Trek asked whether we could suffer, be angry, even be broken , and still stop ourselves and ask: what is right beyond me?

That is the first thing I feel Picard has lost.

[–] TingoTenga@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Thank you for the well written, though out post.

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