this post was submitted on 02 Nov 2025
192 points (76.4% liked)

Technology

76585 readers
2817 users here now

This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.


Our Rules


  1. Follow the lemmy.world rules.
  2. Only tech related news or articles.
  3. Be excellent to each other!
  4. Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
  5. Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
  6. Politics threads may be removed.
  7. No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
  8. Only approved bots from the list below, this includes using AI responses and summaries. To ask if your bot can be added please contact a mod.
  9. Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed
  10. Accounts 7 days and younger will have their posts automatically removed.

Approved Bots


founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
 

And here I was waiting to get unplugged, or maybe finding a Nokia phone that received a call.

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] JackbyDev@programming.dev 24 points 2 days ago (1 children)

"Robot, parse this statement, 'this sentence is false'." The robot explodes because it cannot understand a logical contradiction.

I swear, that's what this argument sounds like to me. Also, I'm genuinely confused why people don't think that, if we can simulate randomness with computers in our world with pseudo random number generators, why a higher reality wouldn't be able to simulate what we view as true randomness with a pseudo random number generator or some other device we cannot even begin to comprehend.

Either this paper is bullshit or they're talking about some sort of very specific thing that all these articles are blowing out of proportion.

I don't believe we are in a simulation but I don't believe this paper disproves it. Just like I don't believe in god but I don't believe the question "can god make a rock so big he can't pick it up?" disproves god.

[–] Couldbealeotard@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago

When we dream we often believe it to be reality, despite that in retrospect we can identify clear contradictions with logic in those dreams.

A Matrix-like simulation doesn't have to be perfect. We are a bunch of dumb-dumbs who will suspend disbelief quite easily and dismiss those who claim to see a different truth as crazy.

[–] survirtual@lemmy.world 39 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (2 children)

This paper is shit.

https://jhap.du.ac.ir/article_488_8e072972f66d1fb748b47244c4813c86.pdf

They proved absolutely nothing.

For instance, they treat physics as a formal axiomatic system, which is fine for a human model of the physical world, but not for the physical world itself.

You can't say something is "unprovable" and make a logical leap to saying it is "physically undecidable." Gödel-incompleteness produces unprovable sentences inside a formal system, it doesn’t imply that physical observables correspond to those sentences.

I could go on but the paper is 12 short pages of non-sequiturs and logical leaps, with references to invoke formality, it's a joke that an article like this is being passed around and taken as reality.

[–] skisnow@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 day ago

You don’t even need to reject the applicability of Gödel, because there’s no proof that our universe doesn’t include a bunch of undecidable things tucked away in the margins. Jupiter could be filled with complete nonsense for all we know.

[–] SaraTonin@lemmy.world 12 points 2 days ago (3 children)

I mean, simulation theory is kind of a joke itself. It’s a fun thought experiment, but ultimately it’s just solipsism repackaged.

In reality there’s no more evidence for it than there is for you being a butterfly dreaming it’s a man. And it seems to me that the only reason people take it at all seriously in the modern age is because Elon Musk said he believed it back when he had a good enough PR team that people thought he was worth listening to.

The DMT I took yesterday says otherwise

[–] survirtual@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Simulation theory is actually an inevitability. Look up ancestor simulators for a brief on why.

Eventually when civilization reaches a certain computationally threshold it will be possible to simulate an entire planet. The inputs and outputs within the computational space will be known with some minor infinite unknowns that are trivial to compensate for given a higher infinite.

Either we are already in one or we will inevitably create one in the future.

[–] SaraTonin@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

There’s a few wild leaps in logic, here.

Firstly, we know of life evolving once. Just one planet. In the entire universe. We can postulate that with such a vast universe (and possibly multiverse) that it’s probable that other life exists elsewhere, but we don’t know that. It could be a unique event or an incredibly rare event. We can’t say, because 1 is way too small a sample size to extrapolate from.

But you’re not even extrapolating from 1 datapoint. You’re extrapolating from something that you think might be true at some point in the future.

[–] survirtual@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 21 hours ago) (1 children)

I am skipping steps because this topic demands thought, research, and exploration, but ultimately the conclusion is, in my view, inevitable.

We are already building advanced simulators. Video games grow in realism and complexity. With realtime generative AI, these games will become increasingly indistinguishable to a mind. There are already countless humans simultaneously building the thing.

And actually, the lack of evidence of extra-terrestrial life is support of the idea. Once a civilization grows large enough, they may simply build Dyson sphere scale computation devices, Matrioshka brains. Made efficient, they would emit little to no EM radiation and appear as dark gravitational anomalies. With that device, what reason would beings have to endanger themselves in the universe?

But I agree, the hard evidence isn't there. So I propose human society band together and build interstellar ships to search for the evidence.

[–] SaraTonin@lemmy.world 1 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

None of what you’ve said ameliorates the faulty logic I highlighted. You have instead just added more assumptions.

[–] survirtual@lemmy.world 1 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

The logic is not faulty, it is predicated upon conditional statements. It is actually a synthesis of Bostrom’s trilemma, Zuse/Fredkin digital ontology, Dyson/Fermi cosmological reasoning, and extrapolation from current computational capabilities.

The "holes" are epistemic, not logical.

[–] SaraTonin@lemmy.world 1 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

Okay, if you prefer to frame the flaws in your reasoning like that, then I’m happy to do so. That doesn’t make the conclusion less flawed. The conversation isn’t about the hows and whyfores of formal logic, it’s about whether the conclusion is likely to be true.

[–] survirtual@lemmy.world 1 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

From my perspective it is 100% true as I have seen the other side. Having the conclusion known gives a small advantage in forming the logic to get there.

[–] SaraTonin@lemmy.world 1 points 4 hours ago

Yeah, that took a turn

[–] kromem@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Have you bothered looking for evidence?

What makes you so sure that there's no evidence for it?

For example, a common trope we see in the simulated worlds we create are Easter eggs. Are you sure nothing like that exists in our own universe?

[–] SaraTonin@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

If we’re in a simulation then we’d have no idea what’s outside that simulation, so we’d have no idea what an easter egg would look like.

But it’s not my job to find evidence to prove other people’s claims. It’s their job to provide evidence for those claims. That’s true regardless of whether the claim is that we live in a simulation, that we’re ruled over by a benevolent omnipotent god, or whether there’s a teapot orbiting between Mars and the sun.

[–] Wilco@lemmy.zip 20 points 2 days ago (1 children)

This is exactly the kind of disinformation the simulation would send out to trick us.

[–] krooklochurm@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

⬆️ ⬆️ ⬇️⬇️⬅️➡️⬅️➡️BABA Start holy fucking shit I can see time. It's the colour three.

[–] partial_accumen@lemmy.world 1 points 21 hours ago

You're a single player I see.

[–] CMDR_Horn@lemmy.world 134 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Exactly what the simulation would say

[–] Kalothar@lemmy.ca 3 points 2 days ago

Definitely was patched in the newest update

[–] Tehdastehdas@piefed.social 7 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

About that title...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(mathematics)

Matrix theory is the branch of mathematics that focuses on the study of matrices.

In mathematics, a matrix is a rectangular array of numbers or other mathematical objects with elements or entries arranged in rows and columns

So really The Matrix should have taken place in a two dimensional world.

Alternatively, I would also accept renaming the trilogy to The Array, The Matrix, and The Tensor.

[–] srasmus@slrpnk.net 82 points 3 days ago (13 children)

I can't explain how much I hate simulation theory. As a thought experiment? Fine. It's interesting to think of the universe in the context of code and logic. But as a driving philosophy of reality? Pointless.

Most proponents of simulation theory will say it's impossible to prove the universe is a simulation, because we exist inside it. Then who cares? There obviously must exist a non-simulated universe for the mega computer we're all running on to inhabit, so it's a pointless step along finding the true nature if reality. It's stoner solipsism for guys that buy nfts. It's the "it was all a dream" ending of philosophy.

[–] Bytemite@lemmy.world 2 points 18 hours ago

I think the "what if we're all in a video game" take is a thought terminating cliche based solely on our own culture and experience.

I'm less certain that we're not a brane stretched across the cosmological horizon projected backwards in time by the collapse of a universe-sized supermassive black hole, and that the answer of who runs the simulation or who's making the hologram is no one. But mostly I think that because I cleave hard to the idea that any natural process that we hypothesize about should have a basis in an existing model. Black holes are something that we largely exist outside and can study and have a number of comparable features that make them ideal to test these thought experiments. There's obvious uncertainties, like whether our universe is spinning, whether it even needs to be spinning, and the inconclusiveness of whether galaxies have inherited spin from that or not, but I also don't buy for a second that the big bang doesn't have an origin or natural cause or that it could possibly be "just is."

[–] kromem@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

I'm a proponent and I definitely don't think it's impossible to make a probable case beyond a reasonable doubt.

And there are implications around it being the case which do change up how we might approach truth seeking.

Also, if you exist in a dream but don't exist outside of it, there's pretty significant philosophical stakes in the nature and scope of the dream. We've been too brainwashed by Plato's influence and the idea that "original = good" and "copy = bad."

There's a lot of things that can only exist by way of copies that can't exist for the original (i.e. closure recursion), so it's a weird remnant philosophical obsession.

All that said, I do get that it's a fairly uncomfortable notion for a lot of people.

[–] derek@infosec.pub 14 points 2 days ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Yes but, also, no.

You already seem familiar but, for the uninitiated playing along at home, Wikipedia's entry for Simulation Theory is a pretty easy read. Quoting their synopsis of Bostrom's conjecture:

  1. either such simulations are not created because of technological limitations or self-destruction;
  2. advanced civilizations choose not to create them;
  3. if advanced civilizations do create them, the number of simulations would far exceed base reality and we would therefore almost certainly be living in one.

it's certainly an interesting thought. I agree it shouldn't inform our ethics or disposition toward our lived experiences. That doesn't mean there's zero value in trying to find out though. Even if the only positive yield is that we develop better testing methods which still come up empty: that's still progress worth having. If it nets some additional benefit then so much the better.

I'd argue that satisfying curiosity is, in itself, and worthy pursuit so long as no harm is done.

That all still sets aside the more interesting question though. If such simulations are possible then are they something we're comfortable creating? If not, and we find one has been built, what should we do? Turn it off? Leave it alone? "Save" those created inside of it?

These aren't vapid questions. They strike at the heart of many important unresolved quandries. Are the simulated minds somehow less real than unsimulated ones? Does that question's answer necessarily impact those mind's right to agency, dignity, or self-determination?

The closer we get to being able to play god on a whim the more pressing I find such questions. That's not because I wring my hands and labor anxiously at truth or certainty for lack of better idols. It's because, whatever this is, we're all in it together and our choices today have an outsized impact on the choices others will have tomorrow. Developing a clearer view of what this is, and what we're capable of doing in it, affords future minds better opportunity to arrive at reasonable conclusions and decide how to live well.

[–] mfed1122@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 day ago

It kind of sounds like you're talking about it purely as a thought experiment or as something to inspire other philosophical thinking. But I think the issue most people have with the simulation theory is when people think that it's actually the way that the world is or think that it's worth investigating the way that the world is just because it theoretically could be the way the world is. But theoretically the world could have been created by the god of the Bible or any of the other million explanations proposed by the million other religions that have existed. Almost every religion proposes a hypothesis that could indeed explain reality, but just because it could explain reality doesn't mean it's reasonable to investigate it.

I agree with you that all the questions you raised are interesting and worth thinking about, but none of that really relates to thinking that we actually live in a simulation. You're just using the idea that we live in a simulation as inspiration to start thinking about these other ideas. But actually thinking that we live in a simulation is much less reasonable.

I think if we're ever going to find an answer to "Why does the universe exist?" I think one of the steps along the way will be providing a concrete answer to the simulation hypothesis. Obviously if the answer is "yes, it's a simulation and we can demonstrate as much" then the next question becomes "OK so who or what is running the simulation and why does that exist?" which, great, now we know a little bit more about the multiverse and can keep on learning new stuff about it.

Alternatively, if the answer is "no, this universe and the rules that govern it are the foundational elements of reality" then... well, why this? why did the big bang happen? why does it keep expanding like that? Maybe we will find explanations for all of that that preclude a higher-level simulation, and if we do, great, now we know a little bit more about the universe and can keep on learning new stuff about it.

load more comments (9 replies)

Inside a turtle's dream theory still not disproven

[–] mhague@lemmy.world 29 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

"If we assume X theorem is true, Y theorem is true, and lemma Z is true, then ..."

This is actually about our models and seeing their incompleteness in a new light, right? I don't think starting from arbitrary axioms and then trying to build reality was about proving qualities about reality. Or am I wrong? Just seems like they're using "simulated reality" as a way to talk about our models for reality. By constructing a "silly" argument about how we can't possibly be in a matrix, they're revealing just how much we're still missing.

[–] kalkulat@lemmy.world 15 points 2 days ago

Oh those mathers. At least scientists are humble enough to recognize that theorums about the physical world can't be proven.

[–] bryndos@fedia.io 74 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I thought the rebuttal to this was covered in 'The Thirteenth Floor'. They don't have to simulate the entire universe, and it doesn't have to be consistent. Just the parts that the PCs are looking at.

I'm not even going to mention what tricks they can do with the rewind button.

Anyways this paper was likely written by an NPC.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] henfredemars@infosec.pub 65 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (12 children)

Dr. Faizal says the same limitation applies to physics. “We have demonstrated that it is impossible to describe all aspects of physical reality using a computational theory of quantum gravity,” he explains. 

“Therefore, no physically complete and consistent theory of everything can be derived from computation alone.”

Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.

Impossible to describe does not mean that it’s not possible to simulate, and impossible is an incredibly strong criterion that sounds quite inaccurate to me. We simulate weather systems all the time, even though the systems are fundamentally chaotic and it’s impossible to forecast accurately. We don’t even know that gravity is quantum, so that’s quite a weird starting point but we’ll ignore that for a second. What is this argument?

This seems like a huge leap to conclude that just because some aspects of our understanding seem like we wouldn’t be able to fully describe them somehow means that the universe can’t be simulated.

“Drawing on mathematical theorems related to incompleteness and indefinability, we demonstrate that a fully consistent and complete description of reality cannot be achieved through computation alone,” says Dr. Faizal.

Who’s to say that reality is completely defined? Perhaps there are aspects to what we consider the real universe that are uncertain. Isn’t that foundational to quantum mechanics?

load more comments (12 replies)
[–] Geodad@lemmy.world 25 points 3 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (6 children)

It's possible that the universe could be simulated by an advanced people with vastly superior technology.

Hard solipsism has no answer and no bearing on our lives, so it's best to not give it another thought.

load more comments (6 replies)
[–] chronicledmonocle@lemmy.world 17 points 2 days ago

That's just what they fucking want you to think.

[–] Mubelotix@jlai.lu 27 points 3 days ago (3 children)

Lol, because these guys imagine the outer universe in which ours is built has the same rules and limitations. Also because they can't wrap their minds around our universe's rules doesn't mean they make no sense to higher beings. Life in conway's game would equally produce the same wrong statement

[–] kromem@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

They also identity the particular junction that seems the most likely to be an artifact of simulation if we're in one.

A game like No Man's Sky generates billions of planets using procedural generation with a continuous seed function that gets converted into discrete voxels for tracking stateful interactions.

The researchers are claiming that the complexity of where our universe's seemingly continuous gravitational behaviors meet up with the behaviors of continuous probabilities converting to discrete values when being interacted with in stateful ways is incompatible with being simulated.

But completely overlook that said complexity itself may be the byproduct of simulation, in line with independent emerging approaches in how we are simulating worlds.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] sonofearth@lemmy.world 23 points 3 days ago (3 children)

The uptime is too good to be a simulation. It has an uptime of like 14 billions years! AWS has a lot of catching up to do. /s

[–] kromem@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

Yes, just like Minecraft worlds are so antiquated given how they contain diamonds in deep layers that must have taken a billion years to form.

What a simulated world contains as its local timescale doesn't mean the actual non-local run time is the same.

It's quite possible to create a world that appears to be billions of years old but only booted up seconds ago.

[–] roscoe@lemmy.dbzer0.com 23 points 3 days ago (3 children)

From our perspective, sure. But we wouldn't know if it was stopped and started running again, or if it was reverted to a previous state.

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] osakapinata@lemmynsfw.com 4 points 2 days ago

But would we even notice an outage? Like hitting pause on a simulation and restarting it. There could be nightly maintenance and we may never know. Or maybe that's what deja vu is after all...

[–] lung@lemmy.world 43 points 3 days ago (12 children)

This is such a boring take, I wonder how anyone gets funding or publication making a statement as useless as "see godels incompleteness theorem that proves that there's more truth than what mathematics can prove, therefore reality is not a simulation". Yes, we know, you don't need a PhD to know the major theorem that took down the entire school of logical positivism. The fundamental philosophical error here is assuming that all forms of simulation are computational or mathematical. Counterexample: your dreams are a form of simulation (probably). So I can literally disprove this take in my sleep

load more comments (12 replies)
load more comments
view more: next ›