Ask Lemmy

My son is a big cinephile, and we watch a LOT of movies, but I am also a history guy, so my son knows that I really don't like biopics, or films that portray some historical event. Invariably, Hollywood decisions outweigh historical accuracy, and the result is usually impossible for me to tolerate. I would rather see a boring portrayal of the actual events, than an exciting rewrite.

MJ and I are the exact same age, and I grew up LOVING his music. The allegations were shocking, and I studied every interview and watched every documentary and news coverage of it that I could. Today, I can't really say I trust either side. I see problems with the accusers, I see problems with the accused. Lawyers advise their clients to settle all the time - "It's not personal, it's just business." I've been on the receiving end of that "advice," and it's hard to hear, because you know people will always see it as an admission of guilt, and not "just business."

So while I abandoned Bill Cosby (another heartbreaker I grew up with) I've decided to keep listening to MJ. We will never know the entire story, but I know enough that the accusations have a LOT of problems, and I'm not willing to throw MJ aside for that.

So while I am still a big (but conflicted) fan, I probably won't watch the film, and if I do, I won't be taking it seriously.

We will never have the truth in our entire lives. But! I kind of see how MJ could actually not be a pedo, but just a special flavor of weirdo.

Imagine that you are born into a family of 8 (2 came shortly after) that live in 2 bedroom home. Paretns are working class and an oppressed minority, so are you. At age 5 parents put you in a family band where they forced you to play and punished for mistakes made during rehearsals and performances. Time goes by. Your band becomes a sensation. You are the front man. You grow out of it and go solo. You are consistently the most famous artist. All eyes on you. Everyone knows each and every step you make, in tiny details.

All that while your childhood was spent never having own corner, never having time to play with other children. You are constantly performing everywhere. Your life is not like "the other kids".

Now you are famous as hell with a millions to your name. You can do pretty much anything. And you, of course, might get that feeling of wasted time that you probably can catch up with. You attempt to create a real Neverland, spend tons of time with children, try to make their lives magical and wonderful. You do things for childer that you've dreamed you'd like to have when you were a child yourself. BUT you are at the age of 30 and every one assumes that you diddle children. Which, again, might be true. We cant possibly deny false accusations in favor of getting rich by settlements. And that baby over the balcony didnt help either.

I, honestly, feel bad for him. Great musician, vocals are top notch and unmatched. Dancing moves out of this world. Great showmanship. Terrible personal life full of abuse, discrimination, specualtions, accusations, failed childhood. Poor guy. He was fucked up in head. Maybe not in pedofilic way. But he was certainly not fine. All that life experience plus super likely drug abuse since we are talking about show biz.

I have a theory about Michael Jackson. First, a little background for reference. I am not a fan of MJ or his music. I respect his talent and what he did with it, but it's not really my style. Also, I was a child when the accusations started. We all heard and told the jokes about him diddling little boys. I have no reason to root for or against Michael's innocence.

That being said, I don't think he did anything inappropriate.

I could totally be wrong. I wasn't there and I'm not going to claim that my theory is undeniable truth, but after watching a few of his interviews, I noticed that he never acted like he did anything wrong. I get that someone without remorse would act like that, but typically they know what they did was wrong, and they lie and sneak their way around any implication of involvement. Not MJ. When asked about his "sleepovers" he never denied them. He consistently said "Yes, I did invite them over for sleepovers. Yes, we often shared a bed. We would stay up late watching movies and fall asleep in the bed. That's what a sleepover is." It didn't feel like a predator denying abuse. It felt more like asking a ten year old how his sleepover went. They'd tell you honestly what they did, if they slept in the same bed, and wouldn't think anything was weird about it, because they're just kids.

Combine that with the abuse he suffered as a kid. His father treated those kids like a troop of trained dogs. Constantly practicing, constantly performing, always bringing in more money for the family. Michael was a superstar around age 6, and did not slow down until he was an adult, away from his dad and performing for himself.

I think that Michael Jackson never really grew up. He named his ranch Neverland, from the story of Peter Pan, the boy who never grew up. I think MJ felt like HE WAS Peter Pan. He had no childhood, and never developed like the rest of us. He was a 10 year old mind in the body of an adult. I don't think the amusement park in his backyard or the pet chimp were bait to lure children in, I think he just really wanted to live in an amusement park, race go karts, and hang out with like minded children like any insanely wealthy pre-pubescent boy would. Many of the children he hung out with have said that nothing happened, including Macaulay Culkin, who was his bestie for quite a few years. Even after MJ's death, he said "He never did anything to me. I never saw him do anything. And especially at this flash point in time, I’d have no reason to hold anything back. The guy has passed on. If anything - I’m not gonna say it would be stylish or anything like that, but right now is a good time to speak up. And if I had something to speak up about, I would totally do it. But no, I never saw anything; he never did anything."

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe Macaulay was groomed and helped MJ abuse other kids and cover it up, but I think Michael was just a emotionally undeveloped abuse victim trying to reclaim the childhood he never got to experience.

interesting that you should mention epstein because when macaulay culkin was interviewed about that a while ago he brought up mj. mac said that one time as a child, he was scheduled to go to epsteins island when jackson called out of the blue to ask if he wanted a tour of the neverland estate. since jackson was famous, mac and his agent went to neverland, and he and jackson apparently became friends. mac stressed that he had never even gotten a creepy vibe, just that michael genuinely liked children.

maybe this was entirely coincidental, i don't know. but there is a chance that michael knew about epstein in the 90s and tried to help people steer clear.

all i know is that culkin seems like a good guy. he's called out bad practices and abuse in the industry before, to his own detriment.

Edit: Apparently that interview was faked. bummer.

"too woke" was invented by big sleep to sell more Zzzz...

I haven't done an extensive amount of research, but from what I understand, Michael was abused himself and after gaining his wealth used it to protect children. Was he weird yes but none of the kids he was friends with ever accused him but one of those kids parents did. BTW those kids are all 30 and 40 year olds now so if they wanted to report anything it's not like they could be stopped but instead they and especially the child who's parents accused Michael support Michael. I would strongly advise you to research into this more because what you're stating seems like tabloidized bullshit.

"too woke" is a term you really gotta pull out of your vocabulary. Not celebrating the life of a serial child predator isn't something that should make you feel self conscious. It's weaponized to make you sit down, shut up and not ask questions. Amplified by the same people who deserve the most scruntiy.

Honestly reading this was a bummer.

I don't think it's fair to compare Jackson to Epstein. Also, he has never been convicted, whereas Epstein was. I feel like "separate the art from the artist" applies and everyone has a different line for that. Like how people still support Polanski despite how despicable he is.

I've been around for the whole ride, and all I can say is anyone (other than alleged victims) who says they definitively know what happened is lying.

It's a fact that MJ suffered abuse as a child and that turned him into a weird adult. It's a fact that he had problematic behavior towards children.

I've always felt that his closeness to children was more about trying to be a child than fuck one, but my opinion is just that and carries no particular weight. I was never a super fan of his, and hated his ubiquity while I was growing up so I don't think I'm biased towards being charitable with him.

A part of me laments the loss of childhood innocence that was present in the seventies. Sure, it was against a backdrop of unspoken abuse and exploitation, but there really was a time when children could be naked together or around certain adults and it wasn't weird or gross or creepy. I grew up showering with other boys in gym and sports and swimming and bathing naked in lakes and rivers.

The world is different now with cameras everywhere. That time is lost to us. It would be creepy as fuck to try to recreate that. But it colors my perception of what was clear warning signs then vs now. There are people in this thread post arguing about whether a kid ever saw his penis, but I'm telling you there was a time that wouldn't have been as weird as it is today. Because there was casual, innocent nudity, it wasn't all sexualized the way it is today.

That all being said, there was a lot of really bad looking behavior and at some point where there's smoke there's fire. You'd have to think he would have the self-awareness of the perception that he was being creepy and inappropriate, and why wouldn't a person change their behavior?

At the end of the day I treat him like a likely predator. I wouldn't let my kids go near him if he were alive today. But he is someone I'm not comfortable saying was definitely as sick and twisted as some insist. He might have been. He probably was. But he might credibly also have been a really fucked up person who wanted the childhood that was stolen from him back and he couldn't have it no matter now much money he spent.