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It's almost like abusing humans continuously makes them not want to reproduce
We don’t breed in captivity
Tankies: "but that's anti-imperialist abuse, so good actually"
Our world goes too far against our nature. Having a child is too much of a burden. Childbirth is the creation of suffering out of thin air. The one child policy in China skewered the demographics too far out of balance. It's no wonder they're going to face serious population decline.
The concern over a falling population is perplexing. It wasn’t more than a decade or 2 ago the over population was the biggest issue. We all had some sense of relief that China had the courage to implement the 1 child policy as it would help address it. It also meant that people in countries with negative growth rates like most of the western world didn’t need to worry about limiting birth rates (we made up the short fall through immigration).
I remember this as well. I think it's really funny. People can't relax.
I don't know how to explain this but I don't owe anybody a child. Children are not objects. I was not born yesterday to not know why they want people to have more children.
I don’t know how to explain this but I don’t owe anybody a child.
I've been saying similar for a while. No one is owed another human being. It applies to several concepts, including reproduction.
“I’d have to be born yesterday to not know why they want people to have more children”
Sorry the double negative was throwing me off
This happens everywhere as the standard of living rises. Most countries solve it through immigration.
As the standard of living rises, lifestyle options expand and the opportunity cost of parenting increases.
China is a bit unique due to the 1 child policy era though
In this case they have to import labor from other parts of China, if not allow limited numbers of migrant workers.
I think the issue is that the 1 child policy resulted in there being more men than women, because traditionally families preferred males. So now there's a pretty big imbalance of men to women in China.
Immigration wouldn't really fix that, unless they specifically only allowed women to immigrate. And the Chinese government is too racist for that solution - I think they'd rather see a population collapse and civil unrest than that.
Yes, I guess it did seem like a good idea at the time. Fake it (low birth rate) til you make it (improved living standards).
That’s like solving a drought by using water you already had in storage… The problem is still there, you just delayed it.
Bought yourself time to solve the problem too. Unfortunately most politicians don’t think about that part either
Watching birthrates fall into the fucking abyss sparks joy
Popu decline is best thing currently for all Eastern nations, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, China etc etc.
for all Eastern nations
Correction: the world. If we want a sustainable population, it's population and consumption that matter. We need to fix both. A world population around 1-2 billion would be an amazing start to fixing things.
What about when the majority of the population is old and the economy can't support them?
That's mostly a problem in capitalist economies. We already support some 3 times more elderly per person today than we did after WWII. How did that happen without the economy scuttling? Productivity growth. We pooduce way more products and services per head than we did back then. The problem is most of that is collected by the owner classes. If the owner class consuped less resources we'd be able to provide more to our elderly. A non-capitalist economy can allocate production and distribution more based on need and not on return on investment on private capital. Part of that would be using productivity gains from mass automation to fulfill these needs with fewer people. Under the capital system automation gains go into more hyperyachts and private space trips.
I say this as an old guy - who cares? We had our fun and time on earth. Let us not be a burden on future generations, at least any more than we already have.
With apologies to Dylan Thomas, let's not rage, but go softly into that good night.
I'll gladly take the MAID route, but if not, when my time comes, I'll go the old fashioned way.
The elderly would not have to die or suffer if we got rid of capitalism. It's only because we work hundreds of thousands of bullshit jobs to survive that there will be a shortage of care for the elderly.
If we switched to a decentralized socialist system, we would only need to voluntarily work around 3 to 4 months out of the year to be able to give everyone on the planet access to basic needs (housing, healthcare, food, transport) for free, with the rest of the year to do with as you please.
Trying to keep using a system that requires infinite growth to function (capitalism) in an actively shrinking world is akin to a death cult.
not have to die or suffer if we got rid of capitalism. It's only because we work hundreds of thousands of bullshit jobs to survive that there will be a shortage of care for the elderly.
I find your argument in good faith, and quite reasonable, but respectfully disagree. Have you ever taken care of a bedridden elderly who can't feed themselves? I have. It's brutal on the patient and the caregiver. There is no quality of life. It's unnatural. It's often physically painful and emotionally devastating. Wanna see some pics of bedsores? I bet you don't.
It's a fundamental part of why I'm pleading for a compassionate MAID option for volunteers. Our societies' desire to cling to life at any cost is what's cruel and unusual. Give people a compassionate out and they will take it. Those who don't want to are fine, regardless of sociopolitical systems in place.
That's a different argument entirely, I have no issue with having MAID be an option for people with no chance at a good quality of life, even with assistance. I have personally taken care of a terminally ill person and seen far worse than bedsores.
The issue of younger demographic collapse under capitalism will cause a tremendous amount of suffering for elderly who are still capable of a good quality of life with financial or medical assistance, is what I am referring to.
No arguments here.
Into the volcano you go!
Seriously though, sacrificing the old to save the young is not so unethical. That's sort of how life is supposed to work.
"Last one in is a rotten old person!" -I'll shout as I cut the line and jump off in front of you.
"Cannonball!"
So to clarify - your solution is mass euthanasia of the old?
So to clarify, is your solution:
A) cripple a minority of youth with an unbearable burden of aged and infirm.
And
B) kill everyone and nearly everything in the 6th great mass extinction, due to an ecological collapse because we needed to keep the old and infirm alive at ALL costs.
Yes. I am proposing a simple painless, moral, ethical and voluntary MAID service to save human civilization and let us rapidly degrow until we achieve sustainability. Yes, yes and fuck yes.
I didn't propose a solution mate.
I noticed. ;)
I love not having kids.
This is also what the richest in the world want.
Good, then maybe Elon Musk can stfu about declining birth rates and can start funding access to contraceptives.
Cultures that don’t have kids will be replaced by ones that do so this is a shame. Incredible that they insisted on one child policy for so long (though it had its exceptions), the transition will be so painful
It's not "culture", it's economics.
Amish and Mormons and Heredi Jews continue to have large families be they poor or rich. Culture is definitely a factor.
Those are outliers. Even within many of those subcultures, birthrates will fall over time. A few generations ago, Catholics in the US regularly had a dozen children. Not very common here now.
Why do you expect it to fall? Amish and Haredi Jews intentionally stay at arms length from wider society. They maintain strict social pressures that encourage their members to focus on children and discourage the dizzying alternative uses for time socially available to Catholics and the wider US population. Certainly in Israel the Haredi growth rate is remaining stable and has taken them from a marginal groups of a few tens of thousands up to one and a half million, 14% of the population.
Anyway say they do defy their customs and assimilate and follow suit, then other currently marginal groups that do find some way to keep birth rates propped up over time or raise them will eventually inherit the world. Not in our lifetime to be sure.