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I think the defense of Stalin comes at the end of a particular path that can be very appealing to people for various reasons.
One potential driver of it is that ML/Stalinist groups are not too dissimilar from a secular religion; it has a group of people ready to welcome you as a friend and ally as long as you agree to a certain worldview and a very specific reading of history from approved texts that always pose historical Maxrist-Leninists as righteous figures who didn't really do anything that bad, and if they did, it was for the greater good, and justified.
Those texts can even make a certain amount of sense if you're disillusioned with the status quo, and distrust western media. It's also likely extremely comforting to believe that while the western world is fucked up and exploitative, there are at the same time powerful allies elsewhere in the form of the AES states, which in their view are making steady progress towards the promised socialist utopia.
So ML groups can offer a feeling of belonging, friendship, a comforting worldview, and the belief that if we just follow the directions of long dead prophet-like historical figures (like Lenin or Stalin), then we will someday have heaven on earth. These are extremely appealing aspects to someone who may be very lonely, or who may have suffered a severe trauma and may not have their basic needs met (which may also be what leads to some people being attracted to the MAGA cult)
To someone well versed in history and a desire to find multiple viewpoints for a historical event to avoid propaganda bubbles, the true nature of ML/Stalinism and its authoritarianism becomes self-evident. But for those who never went down that path and are in a vulnerable state, a 'scientific' cult offering you hope, meaning, and companionship is very easy to fall into, and thus willingly self-delude themselves to attain in-group status.
Just like with normal religions/cults, once they are deep inside it, they are heavily encouraged by the in-group to suspect any outside information that challenges their narratives or isn't approved by the group, and thus the cognitive dissonance they could create if looked at more objectively can mostly be avoided.
Also similar to religions; a ML member is strongly encouraged not to have doubts about the validity of the approved sources/texts/history. If doubts are voiced, the group will attempt to re-affirm the validity of the texts (keep the faith). But if that fails and the member continues to voice doubts, they are likely to be ejected from the group, which is very traumatic for most people, but especially so if there is no other support groups to lean on. This likely results in many keeping doubts to themselves, or convincing themselves those doubts are just CIA lies, similar to how Christians try to reject their own doubts with the concept of Satan spreading lies to tempt a Christian from their faith through logic or archeology.
Source: it is known
I'm an ML. I have NEVER been encouraged to not have doubts about the validity of texts and there is no such things a list of approved sources. The entire foundation of the philosophy is evidence-based systems analysis. The approach is so thorough it's been used for a century in academic contexts for analyzing everything from economics and politics to art and literature. It's not a dogma. It's a theoretical framework of analysis.
If you did start to voice that maybe the CCP did unnecessarily massacre some people at Tienanmen Square, or that maybe Lenin and Trotsky really didn't need to slaughter all the Kronstadt sailors, or that maybe Lenin did betray Makhno just to consolidate power, or that the Stalinists who killed the Anarchists in the Spanish Civil War might have been making up reasons to again take power...
Then you'll be assured by any ML friends you have, that all those things are either CIA propaganda or justified, and if you don't follow that line, and if you bring it up regularly to others as a reason to suggest maybe this stuff isn't so scientific despite the name, instead of keeping that to yourself, you will eventually be regarded as a 'shitlib'.
The issue is history shows that ML, due to its very nature as a hierarchical state, is unable to achieve the claimed goal of communism, and instead only brings permanent authoritarian rule by the new vanguard class, eventually resulting in state capitalism.
It also shows that when ML groups achieve power, they will violently kill any other socialist following what they perceive as an incorrect doctrine.
Both of those are pretty massive roadblocks to building communism.
What are your own thoughts of the events I linked to previously? Do you think it was necessary and wise to kill the Anarchists during the Russian Revolution and Spanish Civil War? If so, what was objective and scientific about murdering their allies?
That's the problem.
It is, because while they claim to want the workers to control the state, they never do, and they never will willingly 'wither away' as the vanguard claims.
The Vanguard enjoy a vastly different quality of life compared to the average worker. The Vanguard are not assembling iPhones for western capitalists for subsistence wages while the factory builds suicide nets around the building due to how poor the working conditions are. The Vanguard are in practice a new state-Bourgeoisie.
"Trust me bro, we just need another 100 years of wage slavery before we can do the real communism, Marx said so, so it must be true, and the only way."
Yeah, they just need to agree to submit themselves to the will of the Vanguard, and *everything will be fine!
(* results not guaranteed)
I'm not aware of an instance where Anarchists were the aggressor against ML's, unlike the reverse.
If the Anarchists succeeded in creating Communism immediately without a transitional state, ML's probably would raise a militia to end it in favor of authoritarian state capitalism, since they're not in charge of it.
Have any non-Bolshevik sources (which are the source of many myths against Makhno, since, ya know, they betrayed him and had to make up with some legit-sounding reasons for doing it) to back up that claim?
I'm guessing you're referring to when he took in some conscripts from Petliura's nationalists after he defeated them? The same conscripts that would've then been offered to join the Bolsheviks before they turned on Makhno?
I have to give you your due here, you're the first ML I've spoken to who thinks that was a mistake.
I've never seen any evidence for that.
I'm glad you see it as a mistake, but it is highly worrying to see it framed as "Killing all those people unnecessarily was a mistake, a big oopsie, if you will. But you see, when ML's commit massacres against the only other group vocally wanting communism, it's just a scientific learning experience! :D"
Like... Ech. It should be a clear example of the ends not justifying the means, which is one lesson that doesn't ever seem to make it into modern ML offshoot theories, and many MLs I've interacted with still think all of the purging Stalin did was justified and based.
wrong analogy doubts r good they make you research Christianity and dive deeper into faith
Wasn't how it worked for me. I had doubts, and seeing atheists in debates with Christians unable to answer those doubts at all adequately only strengthened those doubts until I looked into it enough to realize it was all BS.
Most people leave cults because of doubts. Why would a cultist ever leave if they still fully believe the teachings?
can you tell me one of the questions they were asked?
it was over a decade ago that I watched those debates, most of which were with Christopher Hitchens, though which ones specifically I wouldn't be able to say besides this one, which stands out in memory since it had both Hitchens and Stephen Fry arguing against religion. I also recall watching a lot of 'Hitchslap' videos which were snippets of Hitchens giving quick-witted responses to religious arguments.
For context, the doubts I had as a teenager were:
What could God possibly be achieving by giving children cancer and dying slowly and horrificly?
If those children all go to heaven, why not kill all children at birth to ensure they don't go to hell?
What's the point of this whole game, anyway? Why create this planetary diorama to fill it with people just to see if they believe in a capricious God that doesn't answer prayers and seemingly makes itself as difficult to believe in as possible? Why has Jesus/God never spoken to me directly, like so many other people claim to be able to do? Why did God allow thousands of other religions throughout the world and various points of time, each one claiming they alone are the true path to Heaven, how does one pick the correct needle of salvation in a haystack of religions? The only reason I was my specific flavor of Christian was because it's what my parents believed, what research did they do before choosing this one specifically (virtually none, just vibes).
When I looked to the Bible for answers, I was struck by how awful God was to Job, killing his entire family and giving him unhealing sores, all to win a bet with Satan. God's response to Job asking why the fuck this was being done to him was to basically say "Don't fucking question me, Job, look at how powerful I am boy, look, I can control leviathan or some shit!", which was astonishing to read, as it made God seem like a child ranting at Job for being rightfully upset at him, and with no reasonable answer for all the suffering, just a hand wave from God. Needless to say that didn't help bolster my belief.
At the end it was simply too much that didn't make sense, too much doubt in the foundations of the whole thing, too many failures of religion to make any impact whatsoever when I prayed.
The debates with Hitchens touched on at least some of those doubts, which made me realize all those doubts weren't from the devil, they were well founded and others shared them. At that point I'd finally had enough and said fuck the whole thing.
1 It takes immense wisdom to understand God's plan for yourselves, so, it is almost impossible to understand God's plan for the world.
2 Heaven depends on Faith in Christ and the fact that He died for your sin, not age. And they are still born with Original Sin.
3 Frater, God will always speak to you, but not in the ways you expect. It will be subtle, not a voice in your head. You need to listen and notice. And God answers your prayers, if they align with his will. Lies will always exist, it is your duty to see through them.
4 What denomination were you?
Ah, I didn't realize you yourself were religious. I thought you were just curious how doubt could lead to leaving a cult. I understand now why you think it wasn't an apt comparison with ML.
If God is real and has a plan, at this point I would argue that God is very much not equipped to be God, and contrary to the concept of being all-knowing, is very clearly making things up as He goes. I think Job is a good example of that, since God seems to realize that he actually fucked up pretty bad when Job rightly questions why his family was killed and why he had to suffer so arbitrarily despite believing in God fully, and God basically doesn't have an answer besides "Cause I'm powerful, bro. Look at all these giant beasts I control". Job's challenge seemed to shake God up pretty good, and make him decide to see what it was actually like to be one of the Humans he fucked with so much, so he decides to make Jesus so he can experience human mortality, which gives him a whole new appreciation for how messed up he'd been before, causing him to turn over a new leaf, being way less brutal and far more caring instead of, ya know, letting his followers dash babies against rocks like in the old testament (which leads into our next point).
That means every single baby and child not old enough to understand the concept of faith or Jesus went straight to hell, an unspeakably evil act {or, depending on your denomination, purgatory I guess).
Many religious people have claimed to have literal conversations with Jesus or God as part of their 1 on 1 relationship, are you saying they are lying or suffer from delusions? God's Will is an explanation to cope with the fact that praying is as good as a random coin flip; if the thing you prayed for happens, hurry! God answered your prayer! If it doesn't, guess it just wasn't his will, tough luck sport.
Generic Protestantism that promoted belief in the Trinity. Why do you ask?
Job was suffering as a test, when the test was over, his wealth was doubled. Jesus Christ was not a creation, he was always there.
Jesus had faith, and yes, Jesus descended into Hell for his battle with death, and rose victorious onto our mortal world 3 days later, and was transfigured into Heaven. And Jesus Christ was not born with original sin, as Mary was the virgin mother, who had been chosen by God. And
God may sometimes directly speak to you, when it is a dire situation, but He usually has many other ways to speak to you, and direct speech with God is extremely rare.
Please give Catholicism a try, Prototestantism is not the fullness of the Faith, and many who do not like it, leave Christianity as a whole.
Why not fedposter if fedposter shape??