this post was submitted on 23 Sep 2026
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[–] Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Not 100% sure that I agree with your point about Iraq, but I'm not saying I completely disagree either.

You're absolutely correct to call out that Iraq is not the abject failure - from the perspective of US leadership - that people often describe it as. This is one of those difficult conversations to have around a lot of well intentioned but thoughtless leftists who will go off on a hair trigger as if this means you somehow think Iraq was either a good thing, or a good decision. It was neither. But, strategically speaking, it was broadly a success. As you say, the US wanted to a) remove Saddam from power, b) establish a friendly satellite government, and c) gain access to the country's oil reserves, and they achieved all three of those goals.

I guess where I would differ is that while they achieved those short-term goals, I think it can be strongly argued that none of those goals adequately served the US' long term geopolitical interests. In that sense, I think that Iraq can still be considered a strategic misstep, even though they accomplished their immediate objectives. First, obviously, the cost they paid for those objectives was arguably far too high. I don't think the US actually meaningfully benefited from any of those goals to a degree that made it worth the lives, money, political capital, and damage to their global trust, reputation and moral standing. And I think that the destabilizing impact on the region and the galvanization of nascent movements like ISIL were pretty much inevitable.

I would tend to argue that the US could have done far more to further their geopolitical interests in the region by not choosing to invade, so in that sense I'd still consider it a poor strategic decision (and this is, of course, putting aside any question of the moral dimensions, on which it was obviously horrific), even though they were, in the limited sense you describe, successful.

I also do want to note that I think there's a sense in which Jhex is actually correct about Iraq; while the US did succeed, operationally, in achieving their strategic goals, Iraq also demonstrated some long-standing issues with the US military that have only worsened with time. Something that's not talked about enough in regard to both Iraq and Afghanistan is that there were multiple units that were activated for those invasions only to repeatedly fail their workups and ultimately end up sitting out the initial stages of those wars. That's shockingly bad. When you have whole divisions that are so incompetently trained that they are literally undeployable... Well, what are they even there for? The US military is huge, but it's becoming increasingly apparent that it's also extremely badly managed, and that these issues are not new. I know people who work alongside American soldiers, and the general consensus is that they are some of the least professional, most poorly trained in all of NATO. That's unbelievably bad for a military with that kind of budget and history. The US throws a lot of money at its army, but doesn't get a lot of bang for its buck. The fact that they're now struggling to maintain a single regional conflict has its roots in the struggles they experienced maintaining two simultaneous conflicts back in the early 2000s. These recent issues didn't come out of nowhere.

[–] 3abas@lemmy.world 2 points 9 hours ago* (last edited 9 hours ago) (1 children)

I guess where I would differ is that while they achieved those short-term goals, I think it can be strongly argued that none of those goals adequately served the US' long term geopolitical interests

We don't differ. The empire the overstretched and cannot continue doing the same playbook indefinitely, and a failure as big as the Iran war is a huge a result of that, it's similar to WWII Germany, the US military is arrogant and thinks it's untouchable and can invade any nation at will, and the rest of the world are tired of it and starting to realize they might be next. Modern drone warfare renders American air superiority not as much of a threat, and yes the empire's expansion cannot be sustained. Celebration!

while the US did succeed, operationally, in achieving their strategic goals, Iraq also demonstrated some long-standing issues with the US military that have only worsened with time. Something that's not talked about enough in regard to both Iraq and Afghanistan is that there were multiple units that were activated for those invasions only to repeatedly fail their workups and ultimately end up sitting out the initial stages of those wars. That's shockingly bad. When you have whole divisions that are so incompetently trained that they are literally undeployable... Well, what are they even there for? The US military is huge, but it's becoming increasingly apparent that it's also extremely badly managed, and that these issues are not new. I know people who work alongside American soldiers, and the general consensus is that they are some of the least professional, most poorly trained in all of NATO. That's unbelievably bad for a military with that kind of budget and history.

I agree with that.

These recent issues didn't come out of nowhere.

I agree. For months before the war every expert worth listening to said this is how it's going to go, and now they're scrambling to sell opening the strait as a victory.

They counted on being able to use death and destruction to compensate for all the issues you highlighted. I hope it was clear I was not complementing the US on their destruction of Iraq, but as you said they achieved their primary objectives, it was a military success.

[–] Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works 1 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

I hope it was clear I was not complementing the US on their destruction of Iraq

Oh, 100% clear.

My only point of contention here would be with your assertion that drones mitigate air superiority. That's not my read on what's happening in Ukraine, as an example.

In some specific aspects, drones allow long range strikes in areas where air dominance might otherwise prevent them, but we already had that capability with missiles. Modern drones just make it much more economical. But air power still matters. The reason Russian air power has been such a limited factor in Ukraine isn't because of drones, it's a combination of very effective Ukrainian air defence and limited Russian resources. Basically Russia can't afford to lose expensive aircraft and Ukraine has gotten very good at shooting them down.

More broadly, however, we're increasingly learning the limits of air power as a whole. This isn't something that arose from drones so much as something that's been naturally coming together for decades. In the advent of a full invasion of Iran, for example, much of the fighting would take place in the mountains where caves and geography make close air support and strategic bombing highly ineffective. That same terrain would also limit the use of armour and artillery, robbing the US of most of their force multipliers. The same thing happened in Afghanistan

Essentially, I agree that American air superiority is often over valued, but I don't think I agree that drones are the reason for that.

[–] 3abas@lemmy.world 1 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

The US depends on friendly bases around Iran to refuel, reload, and launch their bombers. Iran used drones to overwhelm the air defense systems and put the bases out of service. Iranian drones are cheap, and American interceptors are extremely expensive.

Iran's use of drones is what tipped the equation and made it a war of attrition instead of just a one sided endless bombing campaign.

It changes the playing field, not makes air superiority obsolete.

[–] Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 hour ago

OK, yeah, I can definitely see your argument there.