Ask Lemmy
A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions
Rules: (interactive)
1) Be nice and; have fun
Doxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, toxicity and dog-whistling are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. Please familiarize yourself with them
2) All posts must end with a '?'
This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?
3) No spam
Please do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.
4) NSFW is okay, within reason
Just remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either !asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world or !asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com.
NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].
5) This is not a support community.
It is not a place for 'how do I?', type questions.
If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to Lemmy.world Support or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.
6) No US Politics.
Please don't post about current US Politics. If you need to do this, try !politicaldiscussion@lemmy.world or !uspolitics@lemmy.world
7) No Hit-and-Run questions.
Please don't delete your post for no apparent reason. If you plan on deleting a question later, say so in the post, or if you feel that you have a good reason to remove it, message a mod beforehand. It's not fair to the ones who took their time to answer, and it's not in the spirit of the community.
8) No Bots.
Posts or comments from bots, LLM's, AIs, Neural Networks, Transformers, or Marvin the Paranoid Android are not welcome in AskLemmy. Real humans only please.
Reminder: The terms of service apply here too.
Partnered Communities:
Logo design credit goes to: tubbadu
view the rest of the comments
I don't mean to get too deep into scripture and whatnot... but "games of chance" are haram for a reason. People should be compensated properly for their efforts and be the recipients and givers of charity, the rest is at least slightly immoral.
perfect, please don't.
I know, I know, online Western spaces are allergic to it cause it has all these weird rules and moral teachings when they just want to be "free", I understand. π
It's because Appeal to Authority is a poor argument, especially when other people don't recognize the authority you are appealing to.
"My religion says you can't do X" will never be a compelling argument or recieved well.
My religion just supports it, but I'm sure anyone can see the only direction that alcohol use can go in if done habitually.
"Appeal to Popularity/Appeal to the Masses" is also not a compelling or interesting argument.
If there are good reasons for your religion to say something or for "everyone" to agree with something then state those reasons instead of vaguely implying their existence.
You are being downvoted because your argument is shit, not because people are "allergic to morals".
Maybe people don't want to be under the threat of murder if they don't follow your fairy tales?
Religion is controlling trash for the weak willed.
Yeah, that's what it is, I'm sure. People do get murdered and prosecuted often for being Godless degenerates... Oh wait, no they don't, not in Europe and European settlements at least, and many other parts of the world (and I'm sure I'm speaking to a Western audience here cause nothing I said would be fought against in my circles, lol). The reason they don't is way more simple: reading and processing Scripture takes time and effort, assimilating basic moral principles and doing good whilst avoiding evil/immorality is counterproductive to getting the bag and going as far as possible in the hedonistic downwards spiral to Hell.
And the reason I'm gathering all these downvotes is because the truth hurts the immature. Who wants to grow up when being a big child is easier? π€·ββοΈ
Most people who claim to follow a religion don't actually read or comprehend the religious text. Especially true in Islam where the text is in classical Arabic, a language most followers do not speak.
Fair, I'll see about changing my approach if necessary. I don't think they're stupid though, or not just that, I think they're immoral to certain degrees.
I've read all 3 sets of books, so kindly take your ignorant biases and fuck off. Also, if you think religion is required for morality, that says more about your weak willed self needing an external locus of control than anyone else being dumb (and goes to show your accusation is a confession).
Again, the term dumb is not even being mentioned here. Do you think Netanyahu Is dumb? Or Kissinger? Morality is not, usually, about ignorance but about different personal decisions made with the same information available. You don't understand why people do what they do. And no, my morality doesn't come from a book, it's just confirmed by it and many others, because there's only one direction people can act in that is righteous (rape Vs consent, theft Vs earning things... and yes, sobriety Vs intoxication falls into it as well).
How else could you perceive what I'm saying, considering your background? Try to read what I typed taking my positive intentions into consideration, and keeping in mind you might just be wrong about things.
To paraphrase:
then literal quote:
...No positive intentions detected. Maybe something was buried in this drivel somewhere but it's overridden entirely by everything else you wrote. You cannot expect anyone to actually read that shit. You may has well as wrote above it "judgemental uninformed bullshit ahead! do not read this!".
The judgement and self righteousness is off the charts in your comments. You are the one who needs to keep in mind you're wrong.
Maybe I was a bit abrasive, but not from the get go, and I've certainly been more polite and less personally insulting than you. You just feel like your reaction is warranted because you feel personally called out, but (besides personal comparisons like "I'm guessing I have experienced more diverse things than you"... but I even said you have a brain, come on now) I didn't do that, I spoke in general terms. Avoid alcohol, and other intoxicants for they dull your mind and impair your judgement, and if they become a habit, they'll impede your development and corrupt your character. And this goes for everyone, myself included. Whether we succeed at it or not is a different conversation that has everything to do with individual skill and nothing to do with the positive and negative aspects of booze/intoxicants. That's all. βοΈ
Because I read enough of what you wrote to see it fits a larger pattern of toxic ideology. Not because I "feel personally called out". Do you really think I care about what some single weirdo thinks about me drinking a beer? The part everyone takes issue with is that other psychopaths think like you do and it needs to stop. Talk about the health risks of alcohol, no one is going to get annoyed. Moralize like a shithead, 99% of people will hate you and your "message" changes into "yep another crazy person thinks like this π€¦ ".
Like I said earlier ITT, (paraphrasing but I think it's my first reply to the alcohol comment) "if you don't talk about cirrhosis they won't change their ways, because they don't believe in social responsibility". But that's not enough for me, people need to remember it comes with social risks (not just personal health ones) and when you engage in it you're welcoming them, and that's a personal decision that has to be judged (if not by them, by someone who's sane and sees things for what they are regardless of how they feel about it).
And regarding the "moralising": be glad someone does it regardless of (and somewhat motivated by) the negativity. We both know morals are sorely forgotten in many communities.
lol dude. The fact that you put moralizing in quotes as if it's not even a real thing is π€
If everyone hates your delivery, you can be rest assured you're not reaching anyone. Which I suspect is the last thing you want to do. ALL of this is about making yourself feel righteous. Too bad you'll be "righteous" but also unrelatable and alone.
You seemed engaged enough. I'll see you around, detective. π
Doesn't take an investigation to spot an uninformed judgemental hypocrite.
Assuming everyone who disagrees with you must be stupid is a great way to never question your own beliefs and therefore never learn.
Here, I'll start:
Why do you assume morality must come from scripture, and that people would not try to seek it through other means? And if morality can only come from your religion's scripture, what about the scripture of other religions?
Not stupid, just choosing pleasure over some more important things (or at least arguing for it). And the "moral directional arrows" can be found/understood in the absence of scripture, ofc, but you have to commit to it and have the ability for it and more often than not people are too preoccupied with everything else to have enough mental resources to explore these topics in earnest. And, because of that and God knows it, scripture is useful. Idk about other religions, it's all up in the air and everything must be judged by its own merits. The more moral sense it makes, the more weight does the ideology hold, warranting more and more exploration. At the end of the day, anything outside of the realm of the material (so, not just religious beliefs but all sorts of moral claims) will be argued about, and the ones with enough wisdom seem to agree enough. Some basic Daoist tenets are pretty damn wise, for instance, and so were Diogenes and Marcus Aurelius to their own degrees, it would be silly to disagree with them just because they're "not in my books".
Interesting. I think there is a lot of truth in your perspective. Do you think religion is a logical conclusion of moral thinking, or just compatible with it?
Damn, I did not expect this uhh cordial reply ITT, ty! π
And I think Abrahamic/Mosaic/Jesuit/Muhammadean monotheism (not just religion because Roman polytheism is one of those and it has their main deity turning into animals to rape women, so you can see that some "supernatural beliefs" are completely disconnected from morality) is slightly independent of moral thinking in a vacuum (even if most of the teachings revolve around morality and not, idk, cooking and bricklaying), but moral thinking is cemented with the idea of an all-wise, all-kind (so fair and understanding, because what else could the OG intelligence be), omniscient judge, not so much because of the judgement itself but because it implies a strict, non-debatable moral evaluation of every act in binary and not wishy-washy terms. Having God's existence in the back of your head and knowing full well He wants you to do good and avoid evil (and much of it has already been discussed ad nauseam in Scripture and in the divine message so it's not like we're all in dark here, even if one has never thought deeply about it) necessitates objective morality, and believers know it.
So it doesn't matter how good it feels, how socially acceptable it is, how well hidden it is, or how you simply dgaf about others (and regardless of whether you successfully avoid doing it or not), any morally responsible and mature person knows doing X (or doing X in Y circumstances, in some cases) is wrong. Most people are not thinking about anything that deeply, so they can just refer to the word of God and prophetic lessons for insight, but the possibility for understanding moral laws without them is still there.
The main problem I find when discussing these topics goes beyond (or is at the source of) faith and just plain ignorance though, as people just have attitude problems: if it's a behaviour they enjoy and they don't want to stop, they'll make all sorts of excuses for them, rationalize them to the end, and that can only happen in a background of moral relativism and childishness ("omg don't tell me what to do, my truth is my truth, you don't know me..."). A mature, serious, intellectually honest person would just say something like "yes, I know I shouldn't do X, I know it's bad for me and for others, I know it can only lead to tragedy, but I'm having issues avoiding it/I'm not ready yet/I'm an honest brat". But, if you go through this thread, you'll see those kinds of statements are basically absent here. And then you have two or more childish moral relativists (because this is Lemmy, a Western online space) and they think their position is acceptable/mature because they're a majority, lol. The fools. Anyway, sorry for such long posts, I need to learn some brevity. π
It's moreso the murdering of all non-believers we don't appreciate
Username checks out
Thank you. π
Maybe because we've seen that most of the horrible societal actions taken since always have been justified using religion.
Whenever it takes place it always goes against the writings and lived examples of the prophets, lol. I know the white man raped West Asia (and most of the world tbh) from the Crusades to today using Jesus as a cover, but Jesus was an anti-imperialist, wandering rabbi who shunned wealth and asked everyone to love their neighbour as much as they love themselves... Ofc, a society of mentally and spiritually deficient individuals will somehow make THAT man their leader (or deity even, jeez) and say they're killing in his name. But is that the fault of the prophet and his message or the fault of every sick, hypocritical, hell bound individual that partook in it?
For God's sake, think just for one moment. How do y'all go through life with such intellectual hangups? π
People who make weird sects of religion their personality are always going to be criticized. You should get used to it.
Idk how that related to my post but I guess it's my fault for casting pearls at pigs. And yes, the amoral and Godless will always come for me, I know. They have to, else they'd have to start reflecting and nobody wants that...
I got a god for gambling, Xochipilli. There's a place for everything, but now everyone can gamble on your phone it's everywhere. It's making Western civilization worse.
Yeah giving everyone access to a personal casino through their phones is a mad idea. I get so angry every time I see Jon Hamm and Kevin Hart shilling for these fuckers; you have a public voice, so use it for good.
I told you about the dangers of silly polytheism! But, fr, we've reached dangerous lows going down the slippery slope of moral relativism. π