this post was submitted on 07 Aug 2025
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It was a good thing to shut down Auschwitz, in my opinion.
That's true, but what about that requires this?
Katyn gets pinned on the Soviets because Goebbels reported on it and it became a useful story, but the execution method was distinctly Nazi, ie killing men, women, and children from behind into mass graves. The ammunition was German-produced in 1941, and the rope used to bind the hands of the victims was German made.
The Soviets absolutely killed Polish soldiers, but the character of their involvement was not anywhere close to what the Nazis reported.
The Poles asked for their troops back when they were forming a USSR-based army and were told that thousands had mysteriously escaped. Then when asked for an official investigation, the Soviets broke ties with the Polish government in exile and made their own.
The Soviets themselves later admitted it was the NKVD. Are you defending the USSR from its own slander?
You have no explanation for why the bullets were German and produced in 1941, why the rope was German, the method Nazi, and the originator of the story Goebbels. There's mountains of evidence against the documents listed as "proof" of Soviet guilt:
Skip to the "forgeries" section.
Thanks for your effortposting BTW. I might not agree with your every take but it's good work regardless!
No worries! And yea, I know we don't agree 100%, but I do think we overall agree more than disagree, at least from what I can tell. Personally, I'm often posting when my ADHD is pushing me away from responsibilities like work, chores, etc so it isn't always the best for me 🫠
Reached out to finally get organized IRL though, so I managed to overcome my procrastination and social anxiety enough for that!
Precisely; well put
Also I can relate somewhat with the impulses and procrastination (tho it's ASD for me LOL), but especially the anxiety and am glad you are able to work on improving in that regard :)
Thanks! And from what I've gathered from my ASD friends, there's a lot in common between ASD and ADHD. They aren't the same, of course, and AuDHD is its own thing, but I've been able to relate especially well with those in my life with ASD ever since I was a kiddo.
Have a good one!
Per our other conversation, the Soviets were trading for German finished goods. Why would you not expect to find German goods here??
And again, the Soviets themselves admitted to it. Why are you even discussing forgeries?
The ammunition was dated at 1941. Further, Soviet weaponry fired entirely different cartridges.
As for the Soviets "admitting it," it was the anti-communist factions that produced the "evidence," and said evidence directly contains serious flaws that other official documentation did not have. The origin of the story is with Goebbels. The post-Stalin CPSU was filled with those seeking to undermine the Soviet Union for political gain, like Khrushchev and Gorbachev, and we also have evidence that Soviet officials falsified documents for political gain.
German-USSR trade was still ongoing in 1941. As part of that trade they did gain access to samples of German artillery, tanks and more. German companies were also known to export arms (in violation of the Versailles treaty) well before WWII. And even if you deny that, there were dozens of countries manufacturing arms and ammo in the German caliber because, get this, German guns were well designed!
Dismissing all evidence that could put Soviets in a bad light, even when it's internal. Truly you are a Communist at heart.
So let's put all that aside: capturing thousands of POWs and having them end up massacred in a ditch is acceptable? There's no fault attributable to them for having this happen to people in their control and under their protection?
In order for the Soviets to have been guilty, it would have had to happen around 1939-1940. 1940 is the date Goebbels reported, and is accepted by those pinning it on the Soviets, because that would be when the Soviets most plausibly could have done it. Further, again, the Soviet weaponry did not fire German ammunition. The evidence in favor of the Nazis committing the Katyn Massacre are staggering, and the evidence provided by the anti-communist Yeltsin regime are flimsy at best.
Either way, putting it all aside, the Soviets did kill Polish soldiers that resisted them and/or cooperated with the Nazis, Slovak Republic, and OUN. They did not slaughter civilians like the Nazis did, certainly not children. There's absolutely fault to be found in excess, but if we just accept Geobbels' word for everything then that excess becomes parody and we remove ourselves from genuine analysis.
All of these were verified by the Red Cross and there are stacks of documents giving evidence and testimony to the contrary. But yes, I suppose if you throw out everything you don't like then any argument will get flimsy. Certainly we don't get "genuine analysis" as you put it.
The NKVD was a police force, they were under no compulsion to use military issue weapons. There are other documented instances of them using foreign weapons, it's not out of the ordinary.
This whole weapon discussion is circumstantial evidence at best, there are plenty of ways it could have happened. And of course Goebbels was eager to report it, it's very well documented in his own records that he was excited about the find and the bad PR it would give the Soviets. The fact that you're dismissing the general consensus that the international community has come to after decades of investigation just to maintain your own narrative is pretty disappointing.
America rightly draws criticism for their strong arm enforcement of "democratic values" through occupation, but you see no parallel to the USSR enforcing "Soviet values" through the same occupation strategy. You've got some massive blinders on.
So the evidence corroborating Goebbels supports the 1940 idea, despite Nazi ammunition dating 1941 was found, along with German rope, Nazi execution modus operandi, eyewitness reports corroborating that it was the Nazis that did it, and there's tons of discrepancies from the anti-communist Yeltsin-regime released documents. Sounds like more proof that the Nazis did it. All this is is you taking a declarative stance that you trust the Nazis and the Red Scare-era west against modern historical investigation.
As for the soviets, they tended towards 2 directions: 1, national sovereignty and self-determination, as well as 2, support for socialist movements. They weren't imperialist like the US is, so they didn't stand to gain from the same economic compulsions that drive the US to plunder the global south.
Oh no, they killed nazis???
Unforgivable!!
Yes! Of course it was. 100%! No denying of that. :) I was rather referring to the so called "liberation of Poland" by the Soviets and all the things that happened afterwards. The puppet government of People's Republic of Poland and all the other things.
From the Polish communists I have spoken to, the Polish People's Republic was flawed but overall a net positive, with dramatic industrialization and improvements in quality of life. There was civil tension between the nationalists, Nazi sympathizers, and the communists. Overall, far better than Nazi occupation, and it isn't close.
i remember a pic of an arse-faced woman showing the monthly ration provided to her by the state in poland, as if saying "look at this misery". probably the pic was shot in the early 80s. when i first saw that the first thing that came to my mind is that, in northeastern brazil (my home region), around the same time, about 1.5 million people died of starvation and malnutrition during the drought of 1977-83, and many would literally give an arm or a leg for that ration.
Well... I'm not a fan of communism so in my opinion of course will differ. Nevertheless I think it was net negative especially because of personal freedoms (or lack there of), censorship, police brutality etc., but I totally agree that it was far better than Nazi occupation. Of course it was. It was peace time finally after all. History isn't black and white so there were some good things from PRL (polish acronym for People's Republic of Poland). Free education, healthcare and mass construction of public housing were some of the good ones that to this day make our lives in Poland better (the prefabricated housing especially in my opinion) but I think it could have been done without all the atrocities inflicted by the puppet government if only Poland was independent after the war and not under the de facto Soviet occupation.
Well, I am a communist, so I tend to weigh communist perspectives more heavily. It's important to recognize that much of the opposition to the socialist system came from nationalists and far-right groups, which caused civil strife.
That's understandable. By the way in my opinion much of the anti-sentiment towards communism in Polish society today comes from all the bad stuff the PRL government did so maybe if that didn't happen the outlook on it today would be different. For example as a strong free speech advocate I think it's a shame that today in Poland "promoting communism" is prohibited by law (it's not even a normal legislation but it's enshrined in the constitution). I personally think that shouldn't be the case.
That's fair, and as you point out the reaction against the socialist system is being used more for political gain by the Polish ruling class. There are other Polish users on this site, so I won't pretend to be an expert on the PRL, but I do think you can seek out their perspectives as well if you'd like, though I'm sure you have other ways to do so given that you're Polish yourself.
Thanks for the discussion. Have a good day my friend :)
You too!
If you have an open mind and have ~3 minutes, I can recommend this short clip from a Michael Parenti lecture
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSpVB_XXXBQ
Further "reading" if you're interested: