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Hi! I (23M) am recovering from complex developmental trauma in childhood. I've considered myself an outside observer to human society because I was unable to bond with or relate much to other people until this year.

I grew up in an environment with abusive parents where any kind of softness or vulnerability in men was considered "gay". Subsequently, I encountered a lot of male peers in school who had the same attitude. It seemed like the entire world had the same message: wanting to be vulnerable as a man represents a sexual perversion because it is a "feminine" trait. I was bullied for the bits of vulnerability that I showed, echoing my abusive parents punishing my vulnerability. This sent me into a suicidal spiral that I thankfully made it out of.

I had this inexplicable desire to be vulnerable that I couldn't suppress. It made me believe that I was somehow "gay" despite only being attracted to women, and that women who like men could never find me attractive because they were only attracted to "straight" masculinity -- invulnerable, competitive, and dominating -- consigning me to a permanent ontological friendzone. Ultimately, I decided to take the Faustian bargain of trading my sexual potential for the freedom to be soft, releasing me from the internal pressure to conform to patriarchy.

(To clarify, I was confused in a specific way where I thought "straight" = patriarchy and "gay" = anything that challenges patriarchy. I concluded that the latter was morally superior and adopted softness and progressive beliefs on purpose even though I falsely believed at the time that this would lead to my celibacy based on the right-wing echo chamber I grew up in.)

Through healing from my trauma and talking to friends years later, I'm starting to think that this belief was kinda bullshit? How can you avoid being vulnerable when merely existing in the presence of your partner opens you up to their potential judgement? How can you avoid being vulnerable when you ask someone out, knowing they can reject you? It's almost like I actually didn't want to be vulnerable despite thinking otherwise, and refusing to even appear in front of people actually made me the most invulnerable and therefore manliest man who ever manned, or something. Also, accepting my fate of being in the perma-friendzone led to me making a female friend who emphatically told me that I actually could find a girlfriend because I have this adorable charm and clumsiness that seems to make her instinctively want to baby me, which I always thought was the exact opposite of desirable. I'm slowly coming around to believing her after 6 years.

Most importantly, love requires both partners to be emotionally vulnerable, right? So then under gender roles, men can't love women, only objectify them? Wouldn't this make society one giant trauma factory where men are traumatized into detached sociopathy and women are traumatized into servitude? So what the hell are conservatives doing in relationships? Are they all loveless relationships, or did all of the men cheat their gender role to develop romantic feelings? If men didn't cheat a little in the past decades where gender roles were the strongest, shouldn't we see a kind of generational trauma so severe that violent crime is rampant and secure attachment is very scarce?

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[–] FistingEnthusiast@lemmy.world 8 points 1 hour ago (2 children)

I reject the premise of your question

The idea of "traditional gender roles" is bullshit, and the thought that men are not "allowed" to be vulnerable is absurd

[–] Lumidaub@feddit.org 2 points 10 minutes ago

He knows that and is asking how people operate who do believe in strict gender roles.

[–] stoy@lemmy.zip 3 points 33 minutes ago (1 children)

Agreed.

I am a 38 year old man, sometimes we need to be vulnerable and emotional to get a release of pent up frustrations and other emotions.

I tend to say that I am man enough to cry when I need to.

[–] FistingEnthusiast@lemmy.world 3 points 32 minutes ago (1 children)

Every day I'm more grateful that I live somewhere civilised rather than the backwards shit-fight that is 'Murica

[–] stoy@lemmy.zip 3 points 30 minutes ago

Swede here, oh, absolutely, at this point I don't even want to visit the US, which is sad, there are plenty of cool museums and other stuff there

[–] JensSpahnpasta@feddit.org 30 points 2 hours ago

Historian here: People "back then" had the same brains we have, were as smart as we are and also were capable of feeling the same emotions as we are. And they totally were able to love. History is full of really awesome love stories. Letters of Note is a great resource to start exploring those emotions. They also have a book simply collecting love letters and you really might want to get this. The onslaught of love from historical people writing to each others will answer your question if men could have loved women back then. Just take a look at this letter of Richard Feynman writing to his dead wife and all the love and caring oozing out of it:

https://news.lettersofnote.com/p/i-love-my-wife-my-wife-is-dead

Those "traditional gender roles" the conservatives are pushing are not real. They were not real back then and are a power fantasy of bad people. There were gay people back then. And trans people. And men and women loved each others. Others were in loveless or abusive relationships. Go and read a few of those letters. They are awesome.

[–] sad_detective_man@sopuli.xyz 9 points 1 hour ago

There's a lemmy resident who made a video about this. He talked about the role men's emotional deadness is shaped to play in relationships and how under this system we're supposed to seek out women to experience our emotions through vicariously. Like, they experience beauty and sadness and joy and we just experience... them.

It's fucked up. It explained so much about why people in my life hated my emotions and what me showing them implied. Men and women deserve better than to be made to exist like that.

[–] SkaraBrae@lemmy.world 16 points 1 hour ago

I'm not afraid to cry. I tell my friends that I love them. I have two teenage sons that I kiss goodnight, every single day. I am a disability support worker. I do regular mental health checks on family and friends because I know what it is to be depressed, and how one person caring can be the difference between living and dying. I hug... A lot. I am 49 years old and I am male...

... Therefore, I must be gay. Please don't tell my wife.

[–] Paradachshund@lemmy.today 11 points 2 hours ago

Vulnerability is not a weakness. It's the opposite. It shows you have the courage to open up to people.

[–] gdog05@lemmy.world 5 points 1 hour ago

Love does not require vulnerability in any shared sense. It can absolutely exist without it. I would argue that a relationship isn't very healthy without some concept of shared vulnerability but love isn't a relationship and a relationship isn't love.

Many relationships are purely based on a concept of "I know what my partner is thinking/feeling" when nothing is shared. There are many connections that just work, for various reasons.

I'm nearing 50 and didn't even know what vulnerability actually was (I had a concept but not an experience. I didn't know what I didn't know) until my early 40's. And I'm still shit at vulnerability and have roughly as much experience with using a Bat'leth in combat as I do being vulnerable. But believe me, I've been in love many times.

[–] EmilieEasie@fedinsfw.app 6 points 2 hours ago

So then under gender roles, men can't love women, only objectify them? Wouldn't this make society one giant trauma factory where men are traumatized into detached sociopathy and women are traumatized into servitude?

Yes

Are they all loveless relationships, or did all of the men cheat their gender role to develop romantic feelings?

It's not either/or, some people do one, the other, or both. Not everyone gets into a relationship, either.

You're only 23, though, you don't need to have all your shit figured out already, and you definitely don't need to understand everything about love and patriarchy all at once either.

[–] BarbecueCowboy@lemmy.dbzer0.com -1 points 2 hours ago

Love is just a set of needs that another person meets for you. Sometimes those needs are deep and meaningful and let you be vulnerable and feel like someone really knows you and... sometimes it's just chemicals, comfort and staving off loneliness. Both can be love, both are pretty great, it's cheeseburgers vs fancy steak.