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From Janeway, Picard and Sisko to modern Star Trek: what happened to the ethical future we were once asked to imagine?

I have been watching Picard, and I am genuinely surprised by how much the ethical structure of Star Trek has changed.

I am not talking about nostalgia, and I am not saying that characters should remain exactly the same for thirty years.

I am talking about something much more fundamental.

TNG, DS9 and Voyager were built around an ethical premise that, for me, was one of the strongest elements of Star Trek:

THE END DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS.

This principle appeared again and again.

Characters could make mistakes. They could become angry, afraid, traumatised or confused. They could even cross ethical lines.

But the line existed.

And when they crossed it, Star Trek stopped and examined what that meant.

That was the difference.

The characters did not simply ask:

Can we do this?

They asked:

Do we have the right to do this? What will this choice make us? What responsibility comes with the power we have?

Voyager is probably the clearest example.

They were trying to cross an impossible distance to return home. They could have justified almost anything through survival.

But they did not.

Again and again they accepted a longer journey, greater risk and personal sacrifice because reaching home could not justify destroying another civilisation, exploiting another species or abandoning the principles they represented.

That was not weakness.

That was the entire point.

Humanity had evolved technologically, but Star Trek proposed that perhaps we could also evolve ethically.

And this is where I struggle enormously with Picard.

Picard himself feels fundamentally different.

The Picard I knew could certainly be wrong, but his reasoning had extraordinary internal coherence. He questioned himself. He debated. He understood that being captain was not simply having authority — it was carrying responsibility for how that authority was used.

The new Picard often feels reactive, impulsive and strangely ineffective.

For me, that is not simply “an older and more vulnerable Picard”.

It changes the architecture of the character.

And Seven of Nine is even more difficult for me.

Seven was one of the characters I identified with most.

Her journey in Voyager was not simply about becoming emotional or “more human”.

It was about learning how to be human while maintaining discipline, logic and integrity.

She struggled with identity, belonging and emotion, but what made her extraordinary was precisely her effort not to become governed by impulse.

She could be wrong. She could be severe. She could misunderstand human behaviour.

But revenge was never the foundation of the character.

Her relationship with the Doctor was particularly important because both of them were learning what humanity meant almost from the outside. Their logic often exposed the inconsistencies of ordinary human behaviour.

Now I find Seven driven by anger, punishment and revenge.

At times she feels closer to a Klingon archetype than to Seven of Nine.

For me, this is not character development.

It is a different character.

And the change goes beyond Picard and Seven.

The entire universe feels different.

The older Star Trek made an extraordinary effort to maintain coherence.

Character coherence.

Ethical coherence.

Political coherence.

And even scientific coherence, as far as science fiction could reasonably achieve it.

Of course there were mistakes across hundreds of episodes, but you could feel that the writers cared about the rules of the universe they were creating.

A decision made years earlier could still matter.

A species had a culture and internal logic.

Technology had rules.

Characters carried the consequences of what they had experienced.

And most importantly, Star Trek was never simply fantasy in space.

It was asking something.

What could humanity become if we improved?

Not if we became perfect.

If we improved.

What would happen if curiosity became stronger than conquest?

If responsibility became stronger than ego?

If knowledge created an obligation rather than simply power?

If we learned that having the ability to do something did not automatically give us the moral right to do it?

That was what made Star Trek different from ordinary science fiction.

It was not the Enterprise.

It was not warp drive.

It was not aliens.

It was the idea that the future could contain people who had learned something that we still struggle to understand today.

I started watching Star Trek when I was around 18, and this philosophy genuinely influenced the way I grew up.

I saw many things I already believed in expressed in a more evolved society, and it made those principles feel possible rather than naïve.

Responsibility mattered.

Integrity mattered.

The method mattered as much as the result.

The end did not justify the means.

DS9 challenged this perhaps more

  1. JANEWAY — Caretaker THE COST OF DOING WHAT IS RIGHT

“I’m not willing to trade the lives of the Ocampa for our convenience.”

JANEWAY — CARETAKER 70,000 light-years from home. The easier way home would cost someone else their future. She refuses.

  1. PICARD — I, Borg POWER DOES NOT CREATE THE RIGHT TO USE IT

Caption:

PICARD — I, BORG He could destroy the enemy that once destroyed him. Having the power does not give him the right.

  1. SISKO — In the Pale Moonlight WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE END DOES JUSTIFY THE MEANS?

Caption:

SISKO — IN THE PALE MOONLIGHT He crosses the line — and he wins. The episode is about the moral price of that victory.


JANEWAY I will sacrifice our advantage rather than sacrifice them.

PICARD I will not become my enemy in order to defeat him.

SISKO I crossed the line to save millions — now I have to live with what I became.

When did Star Trek stop making the moral cost the story — and start treating moral compromise simply as character development?

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[–] DeadEndLink@lemmy.ca 3 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

Watched the first 3 episodes of Picard. Decided it was just more Abramsverse extension garbage.

Star Trek is dead. It died in the early 2000s when UPN canceled Enterprise. That is my hill to die on.

If Star Trek can't teach you self reflection or reflection on the state of humanity, including conceptual ethics, it isn't Star Trek.

Read books instead and try to remember the good times.

[–] 7of9_99@startrek.website 1 points 3 hours ago

I don’t mean nostalgia. My question is whether we are losing a way of thinking that asked us to become better.

Star Trek used ethics, responsibility and self-reflection as part of the story itself. That shaped how many of us thought about power and humanity.

For me, keeping that alive is not about the past. It is about keeping our conscience active.

[–] NotASharkInAManSuit@lemmy.world 3 points 12 hours ago

That episode where McCoy blew up the utopian civilization of golden prosperity and peace because they didn’t fuck anymore like god intended.

[–] data1701d@startrek.website 1 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

I would say it depends.

I mean, the ends not justifying the means is kind of the entire point of DISCO S1 (whether or not the rest of DISCO embodied it is a different matter); Burnham has to let go of what Lorca summarizes as "Universal law is for lackeys. Context is for kings." or in other words, the ends often justify the means.

Also, SNW is better about it, than say, PIC; for instance, SNW S3 E7 "What is Starfleet?" from 2025, for all its flaws (including in some ways being very similar to TNG "Tin Man"), basically has the crew going "WTF! The ends (saving an alien race from a war they didn't start) do not justify the means (enslaving a sentient space whale)!" Also, SNW 1x06 is basically "ends don't justify means", although mostly because it basically copied "The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas".

[–] 7of9_99@startrek.website 1 points 3 hours ago

Exactly. Old Trek repeatedly put the moral cost of the means on the table.

Voyager’s entire premise was built around that question. Rick Berman described it as getting home “at any cost?” and immediately answered: it shouldn’t be at any cost. That was built into the show from the beginning.

Michael Piller was famous in the writers’ room for asking: “What’s it about?” Not just what happens, but what the story is actually examining: paranoia, responsibility, identity, parenthood, fear. The ethical or human question came before the mechanics of the plot.

That is why episodes like Caretaker, I, Borg, The Measure of a Man, Insurrection or In the Pale Moonlight work so well. The characters are not simply looking for the fastest solution. They stop and ask what that solution costs, who pays for it, and whether another path exists even if it is harder.

And the scripts were written with enormous precision. Robert Hewitt Wolfe said DS9 scripts were locked down because the shows were so technical and precise; dialogue was not something actors simply improvised around. The writers were protecting the internal logic of the universe and the characters.

So my point is not “the end never matters”.

It is that a good end never removed the obligation to scrutinise the means.

Old Trek constantly asked: What will this choice do to others? Is the damage proportionate? Is there another way? And sometimes the harder, slower road was still the right one.

That it was part of how Star Trek was written.

[–] HubertManne@piefed.social 7 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

Yeah. One thing Im not wild about trek since ds9 is a sorta slippery slope. Increasinglingly the franchise has become more typical space opera over what it was. Much like what we are seeing in our actual society it was slow at first but yeah everything in the new trek era is sci fi but kinda no longer feels trek.

[–] chunes@lemmy.world 21 points 1 day ago (2 children)

That was not weakness. That was the entire point.

Okay, chatgpt. 🙄

[–] Kirk@startrek.website 9 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (3 children)

Not sure why you're getting downvoted, I was already convinced it was LLM generated and I didn't even notice that bit. The fact that their response to you is completely different seals it.

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[–] 7of9_99@startrek.website 6 points 1 day ago (4 children)

no dear is my text and my reflections

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[–] Digit@lemmy.today 9 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Part way reading through that, I began to wonder, the when, and what was happening then, ...

It seems, Trek lost its way in this moral regard, after Voyager, ...so, after 2001. 2001... so, after the PNAC plan kicked into action with their unifying false flag terror attack?

Can't help also wonder about maybe the slippage had already begun earlier... perhaps, showing the fringe of the federation, evoked, in a "what if all art a tool of manifestation" sense, sanctuary districts. Overdue mends... Where's our Bell?


And as I near the end, I think of the pale moonlight, and yup, you rightly mention it too. ... It's haunting, as Sisko closes the episode, trying to convince himself he is okay with it. New fake trek would have just blasted past that like it was nothing of consideration at all.

I'm glad there are others who see this too, and can put it to words as well as you have there. Good stuff. Maybe we who care about the essence of trek can revive trek. ... I've already got various notes taken for an outline for a new trek in the same spirit as TNG, DS9 and VOY, accumulating over years. I wont be the only one. ... How long before some start to churn it out via LLM? [Edit: <- Oh look, that'd be like thinking the ends justify the means.] I'd rather make it for real.

All the whitewashing narcissistic sadistic psychopathic machiavelianism, as seen in the fake trek (especially the most recent), is clearly not star trek.

The older Star Trek made an extraordinary effort to maintain coherence.

Character coherence.

Ethical coherence.

Political coherence.

And even scientific coherence, as far as science fiction could reasonably achieve it.

And it can be again. :)

Make it so.

[–] RedGreenBlue@lemmy.zip 14 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The conflict should not come from within the ship and starfleet should feel professional. Corruption should not be a part of future utopia. Less swearing and tantrums pls. A modern show should feel more utopian, with humanity ever closer to replacing the q.

[–] Digit@lemmy.today 7 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Oh please. Surely we're of better moral character than the Q already [On the bridge of the Enterprise D]. At least by example of the mischievous loud one most seen. We can do far better at aiming high, than to aspire to Q. ... "What was it they called you on Brax, the god of lies?"

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[–] crashfrog@lemmy.world 0 points 11 hours ago

How else would means be justified, except by ends?

The phrase is “the ends don’t justify the means”; it’s particularized. Those ends don’t justify those means. Other means may be justified. You don’t use an axe to remove a fly from your friend’s forehead, in the ancient Chinese proverb, but you might use a rolled up newspaper. The ends justify some means, not others.

[–] exothermic@lemmy.world 31 points 1 day ago (1 children)

You’re absolutely right, it’s not the same. I refuse to watch the new franchise because I find it depresses me. It’s so far off from the shows I know and love.

I think it’s hard to blame one person for its divergence, so I blame them all. Cast, creators, producers, and writers equally.

[–] Archer@lemmy.world 23 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

What I like to say is that Star Trek: Picard (STP) is so bad it tries to retroactively drag Star Trek: The Next Generation (TNG) down with it. If you take STP as canon, it means the Federation and one of its best Captains were lying all along about having principles. Red Letter Media did an excellent analysis of how terrible it was, and it depressed the hell out of them. Alex Kurtzman is so much of a hack he didn’t even bother asking why Star Trek is great, he just went straight for generic action sci-fi with interpersonal conflicts

[–] Lumidaub@feddit.org 28 points 1 day ago (1 children)

There is such a thing as too many paragraphs.

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[–] FriendOfDeSoto@startrek.website 16 points 1 day ago (3 children)

On a slightly unrelated note:

What's up with double-spacing every sentence?

It's really

annoying to read

if you ask me.

I think you are partially trapped in nostalgia. Star Trek has never been this philosophically pure. Picard broke the Prime Directive in S1 by having contact with the Edo. And then regrettably prevented them from executing Wesley for trespassing a flower bed. Either should've cost him his command.

When Data has an inappropriate chat with a girl on a dying planet, JLP jokes with Riker about the level the shit is up to for them. And there are no palpable consequences for any of this behaviour.

Picard doesn't feel like he should plant the Borg bug in Hugh. Admiral Valarian Canapés wholeheartedly disagrees. And while I like Picard's reasoning, from a ten thousand foot perspective I agree with her. With the benefit of hindsight, it would have prevented the best TNG movie from existing but perhaps we would have also been spared Picard S2-3.

Late TNG and early DS9 with the introduction of Starfleet Al Qaeda, i.e. the Marquis, is a turning point for me. We get more stories that are more grey. Star Trek went from Kirk coming to a planet, telling the inhabitants their culture was stupid, to more contemporarily thoughtful treatments of ethical and moral conundrums in a utopian world, to seeing where utopia rubs up against the rest of the galaxy that isn't there yet. Starfleet and the Federation are no longer exclusively the good guys. Sisko poisons an atmosphere just to catch one traitor and gets away with it. WTF?

Janeway gets a pass from me for most of her bad decisions because she tried and had to figure stuff out by herself. Tuvix be damned!

Enterprise also exists.

Third wave Trek is more grey than Marquis era Trek. It's more CGI and action oriented because they can. That saves a couple of pages of dialogue otherwise spent on ethics. It's different just like TNG was different from TOS. But it isn't a radical change if you ask me.

Early TNG isn't great until they stabilised the writers room. And then there is a continuation of development through DS9 and even into ENT. (Unfortunately including grade A assholes.) "Chaos on the bridge" is the default for Disco and Picard. And that's why they often tell weird stories that don't match up with what came before. They try to do Trek in the now passé golden age of television. And failed a lot imo.

Of all the third wave Trek, I'm most fond of Lower Decks. Because it doesn't take itself too seriously and is littered with easter eggs. Disco S2 is good. Most of SNW S1-3. Picard had moments in it but that's it. My heart's not in it any more. I watch it because I see we are entering another content drought. I even enjoy SNW S4, not because I think it's good Star Trek but because it's a middle finger to Paramount for no longer financing any new projects.

[–] Kirk@startrek.website 11 points 1 day ago

What’s up with double-spacing every sentence?

One of the multiple hallmarks of LLM text found in this post/some of OPs comments.

[–] Jesus_666@lemmy.world 17 points 1 day ago

I think there's more to Lower Decks.

Lower Decks shows a crew that's certainly not as professional and dignified as the TNG-era ones but also one that still feels like the crews we saw back then. They might have issues but they're also dedicated professionals and they're all interested in becoming better versions of themselves. Even Mariner, who has a whole menagerie of deep-seated issues, manages to work through them with the help of her fellow lower deckers (and sometimes even the bridge crew).

"Cerritos strong" may be a particularly blunt implementation of the Starfleet ethos but it is one. The idea that they're all in this together and they're all working towards a better future for everyone underpins everything the characters do, even when they get drunk off contraband hooch. Ultimately, Lower Decks shows that flawed individuals can come together and achieve great things and that you don't have to be Jean-Luc Picard to do the right thing.

The show highlights the silliness of the Star Trek universe but it also takes a firm stance on the side of idealism at a time when the writing room seems to be staffed by 1990s comic writers.

[–] 7of9_99@startrek.website 15 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I don’t think nostalgia is the issue.

I’m not saying old Star Trek was morally pure. DS9 in particular had characters crossing serious ethical lines. My point is that the line mattered: when someone crossed it, the story examined the moral cost.

What feels different in Picard is not that it is darker. It is the loss of ethical and character coherence. Too often the characters seem to react as the plot requires, rather than from the moral architecture built around them over decades.

Seven is the clearest example for me. Of course she should change after twenty years. But moving from discipline, logic, self-control and the struggle to build an ethical individual identity toward revenge and punishment needs a convincing bridge. I don’t see enough of that bridge.

Old Trek repeatedly asked:

We can do this — but should we?

Sometimes the characters answered badly. But the consequences of that answer were part of the story.

That is what I miss. Not the 1990s. Not old sets. The coherence and the ethics.

[–] FriendOfDeSoto@startrek.website 6 points 1 day ago (4 children)

I hear you. You think crossing the line mattered in 80s+ Trek but it doesn't now. I don't think that's true. Sisko poisoning a planet is one of the examples where it clearly didn't. But should have. So nostalgia is the only thing I could come up with to explain why you like the older and dislike the new stuff.

I don't want to be in a position where I have to defend Picard, the show. Half of S1 is okay and then it goes off the rails. There are moments in it that are good. Overall, it's a mess. One aspect that they did well is that they show a hero aging. Kurt Corbain will always be an icon because he ended his life early. So we were spared his ideas on COVID, Q Anon, or pick another hot button issue later in life or albums continually deteriorating in quality. With Picard they wanted to show consequences and chisel away at the icon a bit. The trauma of being borgified. His being sidelined for his unwillingness to bend to his superiors' will. Why they had to bring his parents into it will be the writers' secret. But they show consequences of lines being crossed. One of them is him standing rightly on his professional principles. It sounds to me this is exactly the stuff you're missing and they built the whole S1 premise on it.

Burnham getting to be captain is about as realistic as chubby Kirk being demoted back to Captain.

[–] teslekova@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 day ago

Just want to say to both of you that this type of discussion about Star Trek is the best and it's why I love the show.

You both make such great points, and exemplify for me why sitting around in the conference room talking about a tense situation was so important in old Trek. Different viewpoints can both be important enough to be presented in the discussion.

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[–] _NetNomad@fedia.io 10 points 1 day ago

I wonder how much of it is habit. DS9 thoughtfully examined the idea, and then Voyager did so much more loosely given the desperation level. Then Enterprise often had them fall short on this, because it's the beginning of Starfleet- they're the reason the rules are being written, that's the point. Then Disco S1 was both wartime, although by now that was more of an excuse than the point like it was in DS9, and also you had the mirror captain. By the time Picard rolled around, it had accidentially just become habitual and reflexive. The idiom of Trek became looking at the line over your shoulder

[–] Ariselas@piefed.ca 20 points 1 day ago (3 children)

J.J. Abrams killed it and it's been Marvelized since then.

Or maybe it was dead before that, maybe Malcolm McDowell did it

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[–] Kirk@startrek.website 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (3 children)

I wish this was a real discussion prompt and not a (probably LLM-assisted) rant disguised as a question because as it reads now it's just more of this:

If you don't like something, that's fine, but getting upset because [new thing] is different than [childhood thing] is not productive.

[–] Mongostein@lemmy.ca 4 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

What’s up with calling Geordie “The New Spock”?

Everyone else gets their character names under their picture and Geordie isn’t even close to Spock. Data is way more Spock-like.

[–] Kirk@startrek.website 1 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

That's actually hilarious I never noticed that

[–] Mongostein@lemmy.ca 1 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago)

In retrospect, I feel like there may have been some anti-black racism in the Star Trek scene, despite the ideals of the show. I was 5 when TNG started.

When Voyager came out I remember my dad making a comment about how “there’s never been a black Vulcan before,” and me thinking, “why does that matter?”

Old-school rage bait, I think. To try to make the reader go, “They made Spock a black guy??”

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