this post was submitted on 01 Aug 2025
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[–] eupraxia@lemmy.blahaj.zone 5 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago)

I was raised around a lot of "patriotism" (closet nationalism) and have had to adapt the feeling now that I understand better what America actually is and has been. I found that trying to abandon the feeling altogether was making me feel cynical and alone. The parts of America that I love in fact tend to exist despite our government and dominant culture, which steals and appropriates the things I love about us and turns them into the things people know about us and dislike for good reason. I love the source materials, not the end result. As a white person born into privilege on stolen land, my existence is not entirely apart from this, but all's I can do with that is try to make something better of it.

There's a salt-of-the-earth working-class segment of this country that's getting screwed over, knows how and why they and others are getting screwed over, and has learned to survive together in spite of it. People that make families out of communities. Rail hoppers, union organizers, queer punks, the list goes on. That spirit is not unique to this country but there do exist uniquely American forms of it. I'm more proud of these people than words can express, and that's about as close to patriotic as I can feel these days.

Maybe I just like seeing our shitty protestant labor worship turned to something more productive. Maybe I just spent too much time in the mountains to not fall in love with the land itself. Or maybe I just love banjos.

[–] Eq0@literature.cafe 6 points 17 hours ago

I have some national pride, usually about small things that I know my country cares overly much about and some cultural quirks I care about (how to serve coffee, the structure of a conversation, obscure literary references and so on).

I have some patriotism, as in: I want my country to be the best version of itself it can be. Keeping the good parts (not many) and evolving the rest.

Then, I am very cynical, so the little patriotism is submerge by a distant distaste and expectation of everything to fuck up.

(European here)

[–] WatDabney@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

Every single person on the planet just happened to be born in some particular place, and every place has some particular set of people who at some point drew some arbitrary lines and decreed that the area within the lines was a country and gave it a name.

The idea that happening to have been born within the confines of one arbitrary set of lines rather than another is something of which to be proud is blatantly stupid.

[–] frightful_hobgoblin@lemmy.ml -1 points 18 hours ago (2 children)

The philosophy behind that is that only individual choices matter.

What you're saying is logical, but only if you're on-board with an individualist worldview to start.

[–] MotoAsh@lemmy.world 3 points 15 hours ago

You can be proud of your community and others you identify with without putting that pride on arbitrary bounds of organization regardless of how the organization is ran.

[–] Angry_Autist@lemmy.world 1 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

ridiculous and unproductive navel gazing, the basic unit of human consciousness is the individual

If we were a hivemind species your vapid dilletance might be valid but I really don't see a purpose in theoretical psychology.

[–] frightful_hobgoblin@lemmy.ml 0 points 17 hours ago (1 children)
[–] Angry_Autist@lemmy.world 1 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

Is that literally all you can bring? I thought we were having a discussion here...

[–] frightful_hobgoblin@lemmy.ml 0 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

Most people don't take it as a cultural dogma that the individual is the be-all-and-end-all

If you're an angry autist with that cultural dogma, I'm not gonna try talk you out if it. Most people find it easy to be proud of their ancestors or family or country.

[–] Angry_Autist@lemmy.world 1 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

Wait, you think I'm a patriot? Media literacy is fucking dead...

[–] frightful_hobgoblin@lemmy.ml 1 points 13 hours ago

You think I think you're a

[–] pH3ra@lemmy.ml 10 points 19 hours ago* (last edited 19 hours ago) (2 children)

It's a coping mechanism that gives people who achieved nothing in their life something to brag about

[–] frightful_hobgoblin@lemmy.ml 5 points 18 hours ago (4 children)

Some of my life-achievements involved contributing to my nation.

[–] Angry_Autist@lemmy.world 2 points 17 hours ago

Ok, good, that's you, a productive citizen following the social contract

BUT

Most people who wear the flag and shout that they are patriots have been nothing but leeches on the nation

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[–] Angry_Autist@lemmy.world 3 points 17 hours ago

Fucking thank you, this is so much more concise than what I wrote and encapsulates it fully

like sports clubs but a bit deadlier

[–] Witchfire@lemmy.world 2 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago)

Pride in your country/state/etc is ok, nationalism is not. The US only knows indoctrination and nationalism. Canada is a little better about it with their buy Canadian movement, imo

[–] Norin@lemmy.world 5 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

My take is that patriotism is a corruption of the feeling of belonging we get from community.

[–] Angry_Autist@lemmy.world 2 points 17 hours ago

It's not a 'corruption', it's just tribalism in the modern day

For an example of the corruption of the feeling of community, that would be politicians milking their base for donations by stirring up community fear: i.e. MS13 is going to rape your pets, send me money to be tougher on immigration

But just patriotism is what happens when humans live in groups larger than a hundred or so

It's also really dangerous in itself, even without intentional corruption and abuse

[–] sharkfucker420@lemmy.ml 6 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

It can be a useful political tool in the imperial periphery when used correctly. In the imperial core it is a tool of oppression.

[–] Angry_Autist@lemmy.world 0 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

Hate to break it to you buddy but those pithy words were created before militaries could deploy anywhere worldwide within nine hours

EVERYTHING is periphery nowadays, I figured 9/11 clued everyone in on that

And it's still a tool of oppression

[–] sharkfucker420@lemmy.ml 2 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

The US is not an imperial periphery. Being attacked doesn't make you periphery. Idk where you got that idea. These terms are primarily in regard to economic relations

[–] Angry_Autist@lemmy.world 0 points 15 hours ago (3 children)

No, it is armchair wiki scholar talk ripped from the Romans like some freaking 40k fanboy.

It's not even a good comparison as an economic metaphor as in modern markets there is no geographical center

Just face it, you wanted to sound wise and it fell flat so now you're moving the goalposts. Fucking typical

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[–] iii@mander.xyz 4 points 18 hours ago* (last edited 17 hours ago) (2 children)

I quite like regionalism that doesn't align with national borders. An example would be "limburgers" have a strong shared identity, even as parts of it lie in Belgium, and parts of it lie in the Netherlands.

Fundamentally it comes down to this question, I think: people tend to like to be around people that've shared a same background, is that ok? And to what degree?

[–] Angry_Autist@lemmy.world 1 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

Tribalism is tribalism whether or not they reach national borders

The only reason you think they are 'cute' is that they don't have military power

Give the Limburgers a military that can compete on the world stage and in a few years they would be just the same as any other nationalist power

[–] Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world 2 points 17 hours ago

Every tribe gains military power when I'm a member.

[–] frightful_hobgoblin@lemmy.ml 1 points 18 hours ago

people tend to like to be around people that’ve shared a same background, is that’s ok? And to what degree?

There's different ways of liking people: you don't like your mam the same way you like your friends, and you don't like your funny friend the same way you like your lover.

I have some pretty obscure interests, and the small group of local people who share my interests are from diverse backgrounds (but homogeneous in interests). Different ways of 'liking'. Shared background is one.

[–] Angry_Autist@lemmy.world 3 points 17 hours ago

To all the people just reposting famous quotes: congrats you misunderstood the lesson: think for yourself more please

Nationalism is tribalism in the modern day, and is just as destructive and irrational

Vicarious pride in achievements one never participated in, like sports teams but a lot deadlier

It has split families, forced neighbor to kill neighbor, collapsed nations and serves no purpose in the modern world and the ones that shout it loudest are the worst dangers to world peace

[–] sunzu2@thebrainbin.org 4 points 19 hours ago

Pride, no prejudice

[–] frightful_hobgoblin@lemmy.ml 3 points 18 hours ago

I like it in an unintelligent sentimental way.

[–] PostnataleAbtreibung@lemmy.world 2 points 17 hours ago

Das ist verboten

[–] Zorsith@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 18 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago)

I don't attribute anthropomorphism to a country. Improve your environment(mental/physical/emotional), help others; systems of government can come and go.

Id rather be happy than loyal to a fault.

anthropomorphism /ăn″thrə-pə-môr′fĭz″əm/

noun

Attribution of human motivation, characteristics, or behavior to inanimate objects, animals, or natural phenomena.

The representation of the Deity, or of a polytheistic deity, under a human form, or with human attributes and affections.

The ascription of human characteristics to things not human.

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