Ask Lemmy

It ain't worth a damn to me. Maybe if your country doesn't suck lol. There truly are things about my country I love. In some ways, we're the best in the world. An American can be white, black, asian, hispanic, arab or anything else really. It's a very beautiful thing to me. I find it deeply depressing that those in power want to strip this country of what makes it great. Also having no social safety net is not acceptable obviously. There's far more I can shit on this country of mine for than I can praise it for right now. I sincearly hope that changes. I'd like to be proud to be American. I've always wanted that. Sadly, it's never been a reality for me and millions of other Americans.

Nationalism (and by extension patriotism) was an amazing tool to bring people together in a nation, when coming from a past of small kingdoms, city states and similar smaller communities.

Now it's done it's job and it's time we get past that.

Never seen it not be an unconvincing cover for racism during my lifetime.

It'll fuck your country up real bad.

The cheapest sort of pride is national pride; for if a man is proud of his own nation, it argues that he has no qualities of his own of which he can be proud; otherwise he would not have recourse to those which he shares with so many millions of his fellowmen. The man who is endowed with important personal qualities will be only too ready to see clearly in what respects his own nation falls short, since their failings will be constantly before his eyes. But every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority.

Arthur Schopenhauer

It may a 200 year old quote, but the only thing that has changed is that we have since found even worse things to be proud of.

Patriotism is the little sibling of nationalism, and the boundaries are fluid. I will never understand why people are proud of other people's accomplishments and make them their own. Or is it because people were shat on somewhere else in the world than everyone else? Makes absolutely no sense.

Only the gullible are proud of their country. The real patriots are critical of the mistakes of the country.

I don't like nationalism. You don't have to appeal to people's pride for things that are good.

Much of the time, patriotism leads to nationalism, and therefore xenophobia and racism. How could it not? If you think your country is great, you need to find ways to justify that beloef, and when facts don't get the job done, the next steps are lying and stereotyping.

It's fine. Community is natural.

The problem comes when it stops being about what you love and starts being about what you hate.

For decades, most of my life, the streets to avoid walking down, or pubs to visit, are those that year round, hang outlarge Union Jacks (UK flag) and especially those that exhibit the St Georges flag (England flag]. To many here the St Georges flag is sadly synonymous with Right wing thugs.

Dangerous.

This is a good commentary on it:

It's good to want to improve the world around you, which can be given a label of patriotism. Going too far down that road leads to lots of unhappiness, though.

In the long run it's dumb and cringe.

Source: I'm American and old.

Does it count as patriotism if you think your country kind of sucks and want to improve it? I suppose many rightwingers are convinced that they are doing exactly that, if only it were actually true ...

Patriotism. It’s the food of the wise man but the liquor of the fool.

Pride in your country/state/etc is ok, nationalism is not. The US only knows indoctrination and nationalism. Canada is a little better about it with their buy Canadian movement, imo

I have no idea who Doug Stanhope is but I like this quote:

Nationalism does nothing but teach you to hate people you never met, and to take pride in accomplishments you had no part in.

I was raised around a lot of "patriotism" (closet nationalism) and have had to adapt the feeling now that I understand better what America actually is and has been. I found that trying to abandon the feeling altogether was making me feel cynical and alone. The parts of America that I love in fact tend to exist despite our government and dominant culture, which steals and appropriates the things I love about us and turns them into the things people know about us and dislike for good reason. I love the source materials, not the end result. As a white person born into privilege on stolen land, my existence is not entirely apart from this, but all's I can do with that is try to make something better of it.

There's a salt-of-the-earth working-class segment of this country that's getting screwed over, knows how and why they and others are getting screwed over, and has learned to survive together in spite of it. People that make families out of communities. Rail hoppers, union organizers, queer punks, the list goes on. That spirit is not unique to this country but there do exist uniquely American forms of it. I'm more proud of these people than words can express, and that's about as close to patriotic as I can feel these days.

Maybe I just like seeing our shitty protestant labor worship turned to something more productive. Maybe I just spent too much time in the mountains to not fall in love with the land itself. Or maybe I just love banjos.

My question to hardcore patriots: Why the hell are you so hyped over a place? Especially a place that is governed like dogshit?

It's hard to comment on the flavors of national pride in nations other than the one I live in, but I think if you're an American patriot, you either 1) are proud of horrendous, immoral things, 2) are proud of a mythologized nation-state that stands for liberty and justice which never actually existed.

I have some national pride, usually about small things that I know my country cares overly much about and some cultural quirks I care about (how to serve coffee, the structure of a conversation, obscure literary references and so on).

I have some patriotism, as in: I want my country to be the best version of itself it can be. Keeping the good parts (not many) and evolving the rest.

Then, I am very cynical, so the little patriotism is submerge by a distant distaste and expectation of everything to fuck up.

(European here)

It stinks.

I tend to agree with Schopenhauer(other than it sounding quite arrogant/condescending the way he puts it…):

The cheapest sort of pride is national pride; for if a man is proud of his own nation, it argues that he has no qualities of his own of which he can be proud; otherwise he would not have recourse to those which he shares with so many millions of his fellowmen. The man who is endowed with important personal qualities will be only too ready to see clearly in what respects his own nation falls short, since their failings will be constantly before his eyes. But every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority.

Every single person on the planet just happened to be born in some particular place, and every place has some particular set of people who at some point drew some arbitrary lines and decreed that the area within the lines was a country and gave it a name.

The idea that happening to have been born within the confines of one arbitrary set of lines rather than another is something of which to be proud is blatantly stupid.

It's a coping mechanism that gives people who achieved nothing in their life something to brag about