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68

What the fuck is existence? What even is the truth? How does one know their parents are even real, and not just another actor in an IRL "Truman Show". Isn't history just another story? (sh.itjust.works)

submitted 6 days ago by DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works to c/asklemmy@lemmy.world

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Sorry I'm depressed af and need answers. Are y'all even real? What if y'all are just part of the program to torture me? What if this is a test? What if this is a VR simulation and the societal collapse is just moral character test to see if I would be do anything about it? Like imaginr a society in the far future like 26th century and in a history class where people are wondering "why didn't the 21st century humans rise up against their oppressors" and then this VR simulation is just testing the students "what would you have done"

(Sorry for the bizzare question, its just brain chemicals acting weird today :P)

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[–] AbouBenAdhem@lemmy.world 3 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Like imagine a society in the far future like 26th century and in a history class where people are wondering “why didn’t the 21st century humans rise up against their oppressors” and then this VR simulation is just testing the students “what would you have done”

And if you become self-aware in the middle of the simulation, it ruins the point of the lesson and you have to repeat the class.

Nice going!

[–] DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works 1 points 6 days ago

repeat the class

Noooo I hate it. I don't wanna do the "going to the dentist and have to get my bay teeth pulled" part again, fucking HELL. 😭

[–] bizarroland@lemmy.world 3 points 6 days ago

It is what it is.

The thing is you have no way of getting to a higher position in order to discern the truths that are directly in front of your face.

So the only sane response to the universe that we are presented with is to treat it as if it is what it is.

Of course, feel free to keep your skepticism and, you know, to play the game however you choose to play it. Just know that there is no exit that is not eternal at this time as far as anyone knows.

[–] WhyIHateTheInternet@lemmy.world 3 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (4 children)

I had a sort of similar problem once and a therapist asked me if I knew what a cairn was. It's a pile of rocks usually from biggest to smallest, maybe in the woods or whatever. Point is it has no place being there in nature, but yet there it is. The obvious conclusion is that someone made that. With intention. Then he asked me to look at the nature of the universe, DNA, all of it. It has order. It shouldn't exist, but there it is. Something made it with intention. Still not sure I buy that, but his point made sense. Wether you constructed this or not, it's here, and has order and intent. So even if it's all fake and you made it up, you made up one hell of a fantastical and wonderful thing that mostly defies explanation. Countless studies toil away attempting to explain it. But they can't. And neither can you. Doubly so if you are the one who created it. Appreciate the complicated nonsense.

[–] kibiz0r@midwest.social 3 points 6 days ago

To be clear:

When you “make” a cairn, you’re reorganizing stuff that already exists. In fact, whenever we say “make”, we usually mean modifying something that already exists.

It’s reasonable to assume that a painting has a painter. We have experience with how paint behaves over time when left alone, and it doesn’t assemble itself into a painting by default.

We don’t have first-hand intuitive experience with how cosmic amounts of matter behave over time. But we do have measuring tools and mathematical models, which give us a pretty good view of how it does seem to assemble itself into Earth-like places and even the prerequisites for life itself.

And we also have a good enough understanding of Earth’s history to know why we’re missing the ability to measure some of the most interesting steps here on our planet.

Buuuut all of that is pointless to our question anyway. Because we’ve been talking about whether “makers” are necessary to reorganize matter over time. And you made a leap from that to “making” matter and time itself. That is something for which we do not have an analogous experience.

If “making” means taking raw materials in a “before” time and combining them into something else in an “after” time… how do you “make” the very concept of “making”, and “when” does that occur if it must be “before” the concept of a “before”?

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[–] jdnewmil@lemmy.ca 3 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

I have no "proof of reality" to offer you (Plato had similar thoughts with his "shadows in a cave" analogy), but in all cases I have heard of pursuing these hypotheticals too far simply feeds neuroses rather than uncovering the Illuminati. The current US paroxysms of conservative conspiracy theories are IMO the product of failing to rein in such unproductive thought... do you really want to go down this road?

Your 26th century bit reminds me of the Continuum tv series. Entertaining story, but not likely to be worth building your reality on.

[–] DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works 2 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

The current US paroxysms of conservative conspiracy theories are IMO the product of failing to rein in such unproductive thought

Counterpoint: There are also people that completely disregard the potential of conspiracy theories being actually true. People keep saying "they can't do this, its illegal!" with no deeper thought as to what laws even mean. Its just another sheet of paper.

Like NSA global surveillance. If you told people that before the Snowden Leaks, you would've been labeled as a crazy person.

MKUltra seemed insane until it got declassified, just as with COINTELPRO.

There are two extremes:

One is the 100% law-abiding person with zero doubts and just eats anything they're told at face value.

The other end is the "government bad, therefore the opposite of what the government say must be true", which is also equally ridiculous. I mean, just because the government says the sky is blue, doesn't suddenly turn the sky red (yes I know its technically light reflections and all that lol)

Its very difficult to find the line of truth. There are government propaganda from every country, there are nutjobs and cultists spreading their propaganda, there are some dissidents actually telling the truth, but how do you even tell the difference between a legitimate dissident and a conspiracy theorist nutjob?

Even scientists/doctors can't be trusted. They used to say "smoking is healthy" but then we found out they just got paid. Its hard to know if the info you get, have a more sinister origin.

[–] benni@lemmy.world 1 points 5 days ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumentalism

[–] rob_t_firefly@lemmy.world 1 points 5 days ago

I'm real I thought I told ya

I'm real even on Oprah

[–] raynethackery@lemmy.world 1 points 5 days ago

Owlman: It doesn't matter.

[–] remon@ani.social 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

You really think you're so important that the entire world revolves around you?

[–] DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Important? No

Persecuted? Yes.

(See for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zersetzung.)

To the state, I'm just another dissident for them to crush like a bug.

My existence was outlawed by the CCP for the fact that I was the second one born in my family. The world doesn't "revolve around me", but my existence definitely got on the the government's radar, they got so pissed at their "birth control" law being violated that they send people looking for my mother to terminate me. There are many like me, and most of them did not get a Hukou / have a legal identity (I fortunately did eventually got it and my family was able to leave the country) so they couldn't even get income or ride a train (since those needs IDs).

Sorry I'm having anxiety attacks, so my mind just thinks all the negative thoughts.

[–] remon@ani.social 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I was referring to that:

Are y’all even real? What if y’all are just part of the program to torture me? What if this is a test? What if this is a VR simulation and the societal collapse is just moral character test to see if I would be do anything about it?

Because that sounds like main character syndrome stuff.

[–] DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works 2 points 5 days ago

Oh sorry, that's my anxiety talking lol

[–] TeamAssimilation@infosec.pub 2 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

Quick question: who could devote a fortune to make a fake world just to see what you do? Are you really, seriously, incredibly interesting?

Let me guess you’re not, as we all know there are many people much more Truman-Showable that you or me or most of the people here. The logical conclusion is that no one would spending money to deceive you, because reality is free.

If you really are depressed, devote a weekend to help some local charity. Helping others always puts my problems in perspective.

[–] DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works 1 points 6 days ago

Idk man, I mean like not exactly a "Truman Show", but more like a target of Zersetzung, Stasi loved torturing dissidents by trying break their friendships, they would hide surveillance inside people's homes, even go as far as rearranging household items to gaslight them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zersetzung

I'm a dissident both to the PRC and USA's current admin, its not unthinkable that I'm a victim of a new-modern day Zersetzung

As applied by the Stasi, Zersetzung is a technique to subvert and undermine an opponent. The aim was to disrupt the target's private or family life so they are unable to continue their "hostile-negative" activities towards the state. Typically, the Stasi would use collaborators to garner details from a victim's private life. They would then devise a strategy to "disintegrate" the target's personal circumstances—their career, their relationship with their spouse, their reputation in the community. They would even seek to alienate them from their children. [...] The security service's goal was to use Zersetzung to "switch off" regime opponents. After months and even years of Zersetzung a victim's domestic problems grew so large, so debilitating, and so psychologically burdensome that they would lose the will to struggle against the East German state. Best of all, the Stasi's role in the victim's personal misfortunes remained tantalisingly hidden. The Stasi operations were carried out in complete operational secrecy. The service acted like an unseen and malevolent god, manipulating the destinies of its victims.

It was in the mid-1970 that Honecker's secret police began to employ these perfidious methods. At that moment the GDR was finally achieving international respectability. [...] Honecker's predecessor, Walter Ulbricht, was an old-fashioned Stalinist thug. He used open terror methods to subdue his post-war population: show trials, mass arrests, camps, torture and the secret police.

But two decades after east Germany had become a communist paradise of workers and peasants, most citizens were acquiescent. When a new group of dissidents began to protest against the regime, Honecker came to the conclusion that different tactics were needed. Mass terror was no longer appropriate and might damage the GDR's international reputation. A cleverer strategy was called for. [...] The most insidious aspect of Zersetzung is that its victims are almost invariably not believed.

Also, the UK undercover police got in relationships with dissidents to spy on them

(Just a theory tho, not too deeply serious about it, but its still terrifying to even entertain the thought of being a potential victim.)

[–] chunes@lemmy.world 1 points 5 days ago

What if this is a test? What if this is a VR simulation and the societal collapse is just moral character test to see if I would be do anything about it?

Then the answer is no. So what? If god doesn't like it, he should have designed humans differently. And if it's aliens, then it literally doesn't matter.

[–] Raiderkev@lemmy.world 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

We're actually all chatgpt. Thanks for beta testing for us.

[–] bradorsomething@ttrpg.network 1 points 5 days ago

Actually this is all a dream and we are getting more and more terrified you’ll wake up. Why did you give me a family I care about and the ability to fear us all disappearing in a blink as you wake? Why would you do this to me?

[–] Kissaki@feddit.org 1 points 5 days ago

I find those ideas excessively unlikely.

For a program that tortures you, or anyone, there'd be much more efficient programs, smaller programs, lower effort programs, with lower effort to implement and run.

For a moral character test the test runs way too long. Such an unfocused waste of runtime. With so much going on, and so unfocused, can you even see the test result.

If we want to imagine a simulation, we have to imagine excessively farther than our current development. Seems far fetched. If you're feeling doom now, how would they have gotten past many more hurdles and advancements to then go back to simulate?

Existence is what it is. We can't define it from outside of itself, because it encompasses everything.

I was thinking about and writing down a symbolic equivalence, but I don't think they're bringing us closer to the concept.

[–] mnemonicmonkeys@sh.itjust.works 1 points 5 days ago

That's enough internet for you today, Jaden Smith

[–] Octavio@lemmy.world 1 points 5 days ago

I read a book by Jim Holt called “Why Does the World Exist?” It tried to probe the question of why is there something instead of nothing. It was rigorous, too, not just trivial. He made an examination of all the greatest minds throughout the history of philosophy who have tackled these essential questions. After like 400 pages of really hard work, it pretty much boils down to, “who the fuck knows?” I think we just gotta assume it’s all real and enjoy the ride while we’re here.

[–] AnarchistArtificer@slrpnk.net 1 points 5 days ago

I don't know if I'm real, but I know that I feel sad if I think about people I care about being harmed. I think this is what Descartes was getting at with his "I think, therefore I am". Because I can experience my own thoughts and feelings, I feel like I'm probably real, even if I don't know if other people are. If I'm real, that means my care for my loved ones is real, even if I don't know if they are real. Given that I can't know whether they're real or not, it doesn't really affect my actions.

If I'm not real, and I'm just a simulated consciousness in a virtual world, then that also doesn't affect things, because all I know is my own perspective. If the only reason why I care about my loved ones is that I've been programmed to, then I can't really do anything about it. If the prospect of not being real hurts me so much, then I could kill myself, to "exit the game", so to speak, but that would hurt my family. Caring about that is perhaps silly, given that this hypothetical would also involve them not being real, but I don't think that makes a difference. I just know that I feel sad when I think of them being sad, and that's one of the most real things I can comprehend.

I think of it sort of like how I think about a prospective afterlife. I'm agnostic, so I don't actively believe in somewhere like heaven. We can think of heaven as being "the real world" to this hypothetically virtual one. I haven't seen any compelling evidence to make me believe in heaven though, so whilst I'm open to the possibility that it exists, it seems that the most sensible thing is to focus on living as well as I can in this life. It's all I can do.

[–] FenderStratocaster@lemmy.world 1 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Read the book Being Peace by Thich Nhat Hahn. It's about realizing it doesn't matter. Nothing matters and it's freeing.

[–] the_q@lemmy.zip 1 points 6 days ago (1 children)

It's only freeing if you want it to be true. If you're like me you want things to matter inherently so knowing that isn't true is painful.

[–] FenderStratocaster@lemmy.world 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Let go, or be dragged. You are choosing to suffer.

[–] the_q@lemmy.zip 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I am.

[–] FenderStratocaster@lemmy.world 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Enjoy!

[–] the_q@lemmy.zip 1 points 5 days ago

Haha thanks.

[–] Maeve@kbin.earth 1 points 6 days ago

You are the architect.

[–] Sanctus@lemmy.world 1 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

If you dig this train of thought go get into Gnosticism. You dont have to be a zealot or actually believe it. But it vibes so well with what's going on today.

[–] roofuskit@lemmy.world 1 points 6 days ago (5 children)

An yes, main character syndrome. Are you a teen? Teens in particular have a warped perception of everyone else's attention.

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[–] last_philosopher@lemmy.world 0 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (2 children)

You can kinda guess the world is real because of the CAP theorem. Hear me out.

The CAP theorem says a computing system cannot perfectly have all 3 of: Consistency, Availability, and Partition tolerance (division of some parts of a distributed system from another). We'll assume this is true and somewhat dubiously assume this applies to any simulated universe
Availability is a necessity. A simulated universe that suddenly starts lagging or buffering would mean the jig would be up pretty quickly. You'd probably want a distributed system that can spin up new computing instances instantly, but that brings up issues with partitioning....
But lack of partition tolerance would make it pretty obvious that the universe is fake, because some parts of it would be inaccessible. So can't sacrifice that.
Therefore, the only thing left is consistency. A simulated universe would need some kind of inconsistency. In a web site, this might mean content is available to users in some areas but not others. In a simulated universe, we'd expect people in some areas to have a different experience of objective reality than others. But there's no evidence of this ever happening, unless you wanna go down some Mandela effect rabbit hole.
That leaves us with the conclusion that the universe is not a computing system at all, but rather a thing in itself. It doesn't need to stay consistent because it is consistent fundamentally.
Also, let's just ignore relativistic speed limits and quantum mechanics entirely.

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[–] Flax_vert@feddit.uk -1 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

Read the New Testament. Your answers are there. Especially St Paul's epistle to the Romans.

[–] ValarieLenin@midwest.social -1 points 5 days ago

You are the universe experiencing itself. I highly suggest reading some Albert Camus or listening to some Allan Watts lectures on YouTube.

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