this post was submitted on 28 Jan 2026
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The Deprogram

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"As revolutionaries, we don't have the right to say that we're tired of explaining. We must never stop explaining. We also know that when the people understand, they cannot but follow us. In any case, we, the people, have no enemies when it comes to peoples. Our only enemies are the imperialist regimes and organizations." Thomas Sankara, 1985

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As you can see, I am an enlightened centrist (lemmygrad.ml)
submitted 2 days ago by Saymaz@lemmygrad.ml to c/thedeprogram@lemmygrad.ml
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[–] GeoffreyKlien@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

I'm wondering, why do some people really dislike Deng and his reforms? I can get being disappointed in him moving away from what Mao built and more traditional Marxism/M-Lism, but it does seem like he's made real material good within China and the people who have come after him have kept that good. I don't know all too much about him, so, from an outside perspective, it seems like he's done decent and his market reforms, while not 100% Marxist, have lead to decent living in the modern day. But, I could be wrong.

Also, is that what Ultras are? Those really insane people who freak out on you for stepping out of their line? Those people who take themselves and their "mission/ideology" way too seriously. I've met a few genuine freaks but I never had a word for them.

[–] Saymaz@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

[–] GeoffreyKlien@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

I think that quote perfectly sums things up.

Another thing, though. The word socialist is casually used to refer to countries with socialist intent who are working towards it, similar to communist, but socialism literally means a state where the proletariat dictate the means of production and the political system. Does that truly create multiple definitions of the word? To my knowledge, there hasn't been a state that has met the literary definition, same with communism, but we still use it.

Do anti-Deng people dislike him for the reason of not building a literal socialist state, or do they genuinely think that he was trying to move China away from even working towards it? From everything I've seen, Deng was a Marxist.

[–] Saymaz@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

Deng read and followed Lenin and Mao's take on using state-controlled capitalism to build productive forces for transitioning towards Socialism. The hate against him does expose a lot of 'well-read' Marxists.

[–] GeoffreyKlien@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 1 hour ago

I do think that's an important part to a potentially successful socialist experiment: having a "capitalist," or industrialization, phase. Marx wrote about the socialist revolution beginning in an industrialized, capitalist(?) country like Germany, the UK, or the US because these people were at the heart of the capitalist, imperialist core and had felt the exploitation.

But, it seems that socialism has mainly arisen within countries that were exploited by those industrialized, capitalist countries through colonialism. I think it's because the people in the imperial-capitalist nations are just comfortable enough to not revolt; while the people being exploited through colonialism live through hell each waking moment. Sure, work's hard and you don't own the means of production, but, you have a house you can go home and relax in. The people in those colonial countries don't have any of that, making the revolution almost inevitable.

[–] morchella@lemmygrad.ml 14 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I got an anarchist buddy who hates Deng for the implemention of the market reforms, but loves Xi for his work on stamping out corruption and focus on the ecosystem / fixing a lot of the issues with the market reforms under Deng

[–] Saymaz@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 1 day ago (1 children)

What do they think about Xi's views on Deng Xioping?

[–] morchella@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 1 day ago (1 children)

That it makes sense that Xi would be supportive of Deng while also improving upon the direction he took the CPC. I think my friend just felt that while market reform was needed for China, Deng's policies did not need to be so laxxed towards corporations. "You didn't need to let them dump waste wherever they wanted".

[–] Malkhodr@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 1 day ago

I have a cousin with a similiar perspective as a "libertarian socialist." He doesn't like China perse but he acknowledges they are better for the world then the US and are therefore preferable. Also that they do a lot of cool scientific progress and that Mao was correct about landlords.

He also just fucking hates farmers. Not farm workers mind you, but small farm owners.

[–] davel@lemmygrad.ml 32 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Lemmy anarchists calling MLs ‘campists,’ because neither Washington nor Beijing (but actually Washington).

[–] Malkhodr@lemmygrad.ml 20 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Like genuinely, what third option do they see? I'm perfectly fine with countries not picking a side between the US and China, and just doing whatever they can to develop their countries. Unfortunately, the US isn't okay its that and will force a country go "pick a camp" through its actions.

You either tow the imperialist line and get plundered or you chart your own path and find yourself obfuscated by every turn because of the US. Obviously any country in that situation is going to turn to China, Russia, and Iran, because you won't find proper assistance from anywhere else.

I also don't get how people can't do a simple numbers games. Call me cold and calculating but the Western powers have objectively caused more death and destruction by a quantifiable margin then the "Eastern camp". Yeah, yeah, whether it's 1000 deaths vs 100,000 it's still bad, and so forth, but genuinely, why would you ever allow yourself to support the guy pushing 100k over the other? Again I don't mean to be cold, but it's undeniable that 100k is a lot more then 1k, so how can you treat them equivalently, there's a clear difference in multiples.

Another example, Westerns will talk about right of self determination while living on stolen indigenous land. Many of the native peoples who once lived in the US are literally extinct, their culture erased from the face of the earth. How the fuck can you sit there and use historical land claims for minirity groups against countries like Iran or China, which have cultures that literally span to the first human civilizations in history.

[–] Богданова@lemmygrad.ml 13 points 1 day ago

They see themselves as peak of Civilization and justify their actions by saying that if they quit it would get worse, therefore they believe they must continue. Emphasis on the word believe. They believe that there's no point stopping what they're doing, if someone else is just going to do the same thing.

They set the world on fire, but keeping it burning keeps them safe, so they don't want to put out the fire, they find any justification necessary for that.

Arguing with them is really a futile effort, because if you ultimately take the argument to it's conclusion you're going to be called a Demagogue, a liar. It's a never ending cat and mouse game. A labyrinth of lies.

[–] EmDash@lemmygrad.ml 26 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Having moved from liberal to communist spaces, it's been a strange experience going from: I am clearly the most left-wing person here, to: I am clearly NOT the most left-wing person here.

[–] sharkfucker420@lemmy.ml 17 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I don't really think it is a matter of who is more leftwing at our distance from the liberal political spectrum. The issue is primarily one of tactics. We almost all have the same end goal

[–] ashestoashes@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 19 hours ago

We all have the common goal of dismantling capitalism, but pursuit of what? Socialism, Anarchy? That is where differences arise.

[–] RindoGang@lemmygrad.ml 16 points 1 day ago

There's always a bigger fish