this post was submitted on 09 May 2025
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Some 125 Indian and Pakistani fighter jets battled for over an hour in one of the biggest dogfights in recent history, according to a Pakistani security source quoted by CNN.

If the numbers of aircraft were confirmed, it would make it one of the largest air battles since World War Two.

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[–] Quacksalber@sh.itjust.works 202 points 3 days ago (5 children)

Some 125 Indian and Pakistani fighter jets battled for over an hour in one of the biggest dogfights in recent history, according to a Pakistani security source quoted by CNN.

A total of 125 fighter jets engaged in an hour-long aerial battle, with both sides confined to their own airspace as long-range missiles were exchanged at distances surpassing 100 miles, CNN said.

So no dogfight at all. Thanks, Newsweek.

[–] sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com 12 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Yeah, 'aerial battle' would have been the term I used, but hey since when are journalists supposed to know what words mean?

I suppose it is technically possible there could have been some actual close range dog fighting in this giant battle, lots of jets involved still have actual guns, as well as less long ranged and less accurate missiles...

On the other hand:

Holy fuck.

125 aircraft engaged in essentially one gigantic battle?

That is totally unprecedented in the modern era.

Derp, they covered this in the article

The only things I can think of that come close to that scale are uh... Desert Shield in the Gulf War, but that was massively one sided in the US's favor, we pretty much completely surprised the Iraqi Air Force and destroyed most of their aircraft while they were on the ground...

I can't think of any like... post jet aircraft era battle that involves more than 50 aircraft at the same time in the same battle.

Ok, had to look this up: 'Black Friday' in the Korean War, jets, but no missiles... the Battle of El Mansoura, Israel v Egypt 1973, involved around 200 total aircraft, Operation Mole Cricket B, Israel v Syria 1982, again about 200 total aircraft... and thats basically it.

So, uh, anyway... Pakistan and India both have nukes, and as best I can tell, both have threatened to use them is things escalate... so... uh... yeah...

https://www.reuters.com/world/india/pakistan-says-three-air-bases-targeted-by-indian-missiles-2025-05-10/

Apparently there is a cease fire, apparently Trump is taking credit for it, apparently it has already been violated?

I am watching India Today's livestream and they are currently saying Pakistan has and is currently still violating the ceasefire, and I have little doubt the Indians are as well.

EDIT: Former Indian Secretary MEA is basically saying Trump's 'ceasefire' is complete bullshit, that India and Pakistan reached their own ceasefire, and though it seems like its falling apart, the other point here is that neither Pakistan nor India are paying any attention to Trump, they have no idea what he is talking about, they have not agreed to anything mediated by the US.

[–] FreezerBurnt@lemmy.squids.ca 19 points 2 days ago

That's the reality of a modern day "dog fight". All radar and ECM...

No one said modern war would be more exciting...

[–] peoplebeproblems@midwest.social 83 points 3 days ago (2 children)

That's modern dogfighting. Don't viate enemy airspace so ground AA can't get you. Rely on BVR missiles because if you are in range with guns something went terribly wrong

[–] tal@lemmy.today 151 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (2 children)

On the off chance that you're not joking, what @Quacksalber@sh.itjust.works is pointing out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogfight

A dogfight, or dog fight, is an aerial battle between fighter aircraft that is conducted at close range.

A "dogfight" isn't just a synonym for an air-to-air engagement, but specifically refers to a close-range one.

[–] peoplebeproblems@midwest.social 17 points 3 days ago (3 children)

Has there been a actual dogfight since Vietnam?

[–] copd@lemmy.world 8 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Falklands had several well documented ones. mirages vs harriers with aim9Ls, it didn't end well for the Argentines

[–] Not_mikey@slrpnk.net 21 points 2 days ago (1 children)

There were some in the first gulf war. People forget but iraq had the sixth largest airforce at the time and were able to shoot down a couple American planes before being overwhelmed and fleeing to Iran.

[–] 5714@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 2 days ago (1 children)

fleeing to Iran

That's ironic, given their war before.

[–] Doomsider@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

Pushing allies into enemies is what we do best apparently.

This is particularly bizarre considering Al Qaeda was sworn enemies to Iraq. How does that saying go? Oh yeah, the enemy of my enemy is my enemy.

[–] kozy138@lemm.ee 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I mean, if we consider that some long-range middle engagements are launched from thousand of miles away, surely 100mi can be considered 'close range' by comparison?

How long does it even take a jet to travel 100mi when going Mach 2 or 3?

[–] 5714@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 2 days ago

2-3 min at 8,000 m height.

[–] merdaverse@lemmy.world 11 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

This is most modern day combat. Getting shot at by things from tens to hundreds of kms. Most people think of WW2 action movies, which are already pretty unrealistic. Or maybe in this case Star Wars dogfights, which are just... lol

[–] sircac@lemmy.world 11 points 2 days ago

Dogfight as in two dogs barking each other with a fence in the middle... 😅

[–] Renohren@lemmy.today 12 points 3 days ago (3 children)

So the air version of their border guard dancy thing where the challenge is who stomps the loudest wins, while random people around enjoy the ridiculous show while eating pop corn.

[–] ToastedRavioli@midwest.social 20 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Tbf thats literally exactly what most all warfare was more like prior to WWI

[–] tal@lemmy.today 7 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

I think what @Renohren@lemmy.world's referring to is that India and Pakistan have, in the past, conducted nonviolent ceremonies at the border involving soldiers from each side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LixwXJpggME

I believe that the painting that you're talking about was from an American Civil War battle that was close enough to a city (Washington DC?) that spectators decided to show up to watch. A bunch of people (including, IIRC, spectators) did die. That wasn't being done with the intent of ceremony.

kagis

The First Battle of Bull Run.

https://www.history.com/articles/worst-picnic-in-history-was-interrupted-by-war

On July 21, 1861, Washingtonians trekked to the countryside near Manassas, Virginia, to watch Union and Confederate forces clash in the first major battle of the American Civil War. Known in the North as the First Battle of Bull Run and in the South as the Battle of First Manassas, the military engagement also earned the nickname the “picnic battle” because spectators showed up with sandwiches and opera glasses. These onlookers, who included a number of U.S. congressmen, expected a victory for the Union and a swift end to the war that had begun three months before.

Instead, the battle that day resulted in a bloody defeat for the Union and sent the picnickers scrambling to safety.

Just to confirm, Tineye finds one match corresponding to your image, called "CivalWar_PicnicAtManassas.jpg", so I suspect that's from that battle.

I don't think that I'd call that very representative of even American Civil War battles, though, much less of all prior battles in history.

[–] scytale@lemm.ee 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Yeah, instead of shooting missiles they can just try to outdo each other in aerial maneuvers or something.