I think we can start calling this whole global situation WW3 now.
this post was submitted on 09 May 2025
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The only reason it isn't yet, is because the conflicts don't all align along two clear sides.
Some 125 Indian and Pakistani fighter jets battled for over an hour in one of the biggest dogfights in recent history, according to a Pakistani security source quoted by CNN.
A total of 125 fighter jets engaged in an hour-long aerial battle, with both sides confined to their own airspace as long-range missiles were exchanged at distances surpassing 100 miles, CNN said.
So no dogfight at all. Thanks, Newsweek.
Yeah, 'aerial battle' would have been the term I used, but hey since when are journalists supposed to know what words mean?
I suppose it is technically possible there could have been some actual close range dog fighting in this giant battle, lots of jets involved still have actual guns, as well as less long ranged and less accurate missiles...
On the other hand:
Holy fuck.
125 aircraft engaged in essentially one gigantic battle?
That is totally unprecedented in the modern era.
Derp, they covered this in the article
The only things I can think of that come close to that scale are uh... Desert Shield in the Gulf War, but that was massively one sided in the US's favor, we pretty much completely surprised the Iraqi Air Force and destroyed most of their aircraft while they were on the ground...
I can't think of any like... post jet aircraft era battle that involves more than 50 aircraft at the same time in the same battle.
Ok, had to look this up: 'Black Friday' in the Korean War, jets, but no missiles... the Battle of El Mansoura, Israel v Egypt 1973, involved around 200 total aircraft, Operation Mole Cricket B, Israel v Syria 1982, again about 200 total aircraft... and thats basically it.
So, uh, anyway... Pakistan and India both have nukes, and as best I can tell, both have threatened to use them is things escalate... so... uh... yeah...
Apparently there is a cease fire, apparently Trump is taking credit for it, apparently it has already been violated?
I am watching India Today's livestream and they are currently saying Pakistan has and is currently still violating the ceasefire, and I have little doubt the Indians are as well.
EDIT: Former Indian Secretary MEA is basically saying Trump's 'ceasefire' is complete bullshit, that India and Pakistan reached their own ceasefire, and though it seems like its falling apart, the other point here is that neither Pakistan nor India are paying any attention to Trump, they have no idea what he is talking about, they have not agreed to anything mediated by the US.
That's the reality of a modern day "dog fight". All radar and ECM...
No one said modern war would be more exciting...
That's modern dogfighting. Don't viate enemy airspace so ground AA can't get you. Rely on BVR missiles because if you are in range with guns something went terribly wrong
On the off chance that you're not joking, what @Quacksalber@sh.itjust.works is pointing out:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogfight
A dogfight, or dog fight, is an aerial battle between fighter aircraft that is conducted at close range.
A "dogfight" isn't just a synonym for an air-to-air engagement, but specifically refers to a close-range one.
Has there been a actual dogfight since Vietnam?
Falklands had several well documented ones. mirages vs harriers with aim9Ls, it didn't end well for the Argentines
There were some in the first gulf war. People forget but iraq had the sixth largest airforce at the time and were able to shoot down a couple American planes before being overwhelmed and fleeing to Iran.
fleeing to Iran
That's ironic, given their war before.
Pushing allies into enemies is what we do best apparently.
This is particularly bizarre considering Al Qaeda was sworn enemies to Iraq. How does that saying go? Oh yeah, the enemy of my enemy is my enemy.
Topgun
I mean, if we consider that some long-range middle engagements are launched from thousand of miles away, surely 100mi can be considered 'close range' by comparison?
How long does it even take a jet to travel 100mi when going Mach 2 or 3?
2-3 min at 8,000 m height.
This is most modern day combat. Getting shot at by things from tens to hundreds of kms. Most people think of WW2 action movies, which are already pretty unrealistic. Or maybe in this case Star Wars dogfights, which are just... lol
Dogfight as in two dogs barking each other with a fence in the middle... 😅
So the air version of their border guard dancy thing where the challenge is who stomps the loudest wins, while random people around enjoy the ridiculous show while eating pop corn.
Tbf thats literally exactly what most all warfare was more like prior to WWI
I think what @Renohren@lemmy.world's referring to is that India and Pakistan have, in the past, conducted nonviolent ceremonies at the border involving soldiers from each side.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LixwXJpggME
I believe that the painting that you're talking about was from an American Civil War battle that was close enough to a city (Washington DC?) that spectators decided to show up to watch. A bunch of people (including, IIRC, spectators) did die. That wasn't being done with the intent of ceremony.
kagis
https://www.history.com/articles/worst-picnic-in-history-was-interrupted-by-war
On July 21, 1861, Washingtonians trekked to the countryside near Manassas, Virginia, to watch Union and Confederate forces clash in the first major battle of the American Civil War. Known in the North as the First Battle of Bull Run and in the South as the Battle of First Manassas, the military engagement also earned the nickname the “picnic battle” because spectators showed up with sandwiches and opera glasses. These onlookers, who included a number of U.S. congressmen, expected a victory for the Union and a swift end to the war that had begun three months before.
Instead, the battle that day resulted in a bloody defeat for the Union and sent the picnickers scrambling to safety.
Just to confirm, Tineye finds one match corresponding to your image, called "CivalWar_PicnicAtManassas.jpg", so I suspect that's from that battle.
I don't think that I'd call that very representative of even American Civil War battles, though, much less of all prior battles in history.
Yeah, instead of shooting missiles they can just try to outdo each other in aerial maneuvers or something.
Do a flip!
world war iii is dumb and i find myself realizing the start of world war i surely felt like this, too
The dumb cycle rolls on. Let's hope humanity can break it some day.
when the cuttlefish read the historic record of what happened in our era they're gonna think our species was so stupid, and they're going to wonder whey their ancestors only lived for a year when they clearly had things more figured out than us
When I travelled India a decade ago I shared a cabin on a 24 hour train journey with the head of the Indian air force and his father, the former head of the Indian air force, who flew jets in the last Indo-Pakistan war.
That's my story. Thanks for listening.
Did you talk about anything interesting?
We actually talked mostly about South African politics. It was a month before Mandela passed away. They were fascinated to hear about living in SA.
I'm a little surprised that they would share a cabin with a tourist.
And it was a second class cabin. I was equally surprised. They seemed very humble though.
war_counter++
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It's really starting to feel like WW1 again. Now that we are going back to a multipolar world order, shit is starting to rapidly spin out of control. I expect the current wars to get worse, and new ones to break out. My money is on China invading Taiwan next. :/
I think they might as well I just hope none of these skirmishes go to the Nuclear level as I'm almost certain the US will lose at least a couple of carriers intervening.
I think the fight will be very lopsided in China's favour and with Trump at the helm who knows.
The "dog fight" between Pakistani and Indian fighter jets, which Pakistani officials say downed five Indian planes, was one of the "largest and longest in recent aviation history," a senior Pakistani security source told CNN. The Pakistani claim has not been corroborated and could not be immediately verified by Newsweek.
5 planes downed would be a lot, I wonder what the actual count is.
One Indian plane is already confirmed by France and US claims 2 were down by Chinese jets of Pakistan
Though in all fairness this is mostly meaningless as it's just random missile throwing rather than a real engagement
Mmm yes, missiles aren’t REAL fighting. It only counts if you do it traditionally — pilots shooting at each other with pistols from their open cockpits.
You reminded me of Gunship- Fly For Your Life (great music and incredible visuals)
Dawg that's how BVR fights work.
It's still a dogfight, you don't just sit there and let the missile do all the work.
Even before the crazy new range of China's PL-15, PAF was using AIM-120s and shot down a MiG-21 5 years ago.
Every airforce hides their tactics but you can open any DCS video using BVR missiles to see how difficult it can get
Fun stuff
The War Zone doesn't have much up yet as of this writing, but I'd consider them a stronger publication on military matters than Newsweek.
https://www.twz.com/air/the-air-to-air-missiles-that-equip-india-and-pakistans-fighters
Meanwhile, another senior Pakistani security source has described to CNN a large-scale air battle involving 125 jets, fighting for over an hour, in which time the aircraft remained in their respective airspaces and lobbed AAMs at each other from long distances.
As well as crewed fighters, Pakistan has also made extensive claims on the destruction of Indian drones. Earlier today, Pakistan said it had downed 25 Israeli-made Harop loitering munitions. One of these drones was able to “partially” engage a target near the city of Lahore, injuring four army personnel, according to Pakistan Army spokesman Lt. Gen. Ahmed Sharif Chaudhry.
So far, India’s government has neither confirmed nor denied any of these losses. The use of Chinese-made AAMs by the Pakistan Air Force has also been capitalized on by Beijing, leading to the Indian embassy in China accusing Chinese state media of “disinformation.”
Overall, a significant degree of confusion is very much typical when dealing with engagements that have been happening in the heat of combat. A flood of official and unofficial claims and counterclaims, some of them outlandish, is also to be expected, especially when dealing with social media. So, we should keep an open mind about the results of these aerial confrontations and consider that accidents, as well as friendly fire incidents, are also very possible. At the same time, Indian and Pakistani ground-based air defense systems have very likely also played a significant role, and any aircraft losses could also be the result of surface-to-air missile engagements.
Top Gun: The Musical
This headline is like saying there was "a big brawl between two neighboring schools" when in reality it was just kids throwing rocks over the fence.