this post was submitted on 02 Nov 2026
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Privacy

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  • I didn't expected this kind of thing to show up today.

  • I don't want to use a vibecode slop that isnt tested by real humans.

  • I just want a secure and privacy respecting email not ai slop.

  • Good Bye Proton I am Not Happy With You

Any Suggestion ?

  • I want drive and calender support
  • Made by humans not slop machine.
  • FOSS
  • May Be a Linux Client Support
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[–] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 1 points 11 hours ago (4 children)

Poor analogy.

You can clean up shit. But you can't cram it back in the dog's ass. Well, hypothetically, but you'll be covered in shit and have a very upset dog.

What you can't clean up is knowledge, ideas. Where a technology to exists, and minds know if it, it can be recreated. Doesn't matter how hard you try, it's part of human comprehension. Ai in one form of another has been a goal for decades. You can't erase that.

All we could do is rebuild it better. Less abusive, more regulations and controls, better planning. And I'm all for that, but it isn't as simple as your bad analogy makes it seem

Honestly? That kind of shitty thinking is as much a problem as badly instituted ai is. You were so busy trying to pull a gotcha that you couldn't be bothered to talk to a fellow human being with respect and decency. You know, a very similar way of thinking that makes Sam Altman and Andy Yen such horrible stewards of otherwise good software.

[–] XLE@piefed.social 5 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

You weren't talking about fixing anything. You gave a defeatist, false dichotomy of "accept this thing" or "total revolution".

The reason people chose Proton was with the expectation it could simply choose not to shove slop into its products , which is an option you omit.

The Orphan Crushing Machine isn't bad because it's helmed by Altman. It's an inherently bad thing, and it attracts bad people to it like flies.

[–] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works -1 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

Look, I'm not sure why you're responding here, unless you're an alt of the person I was responding to. There's some degree of connection, but it's a different main thrust.

Yeah, capitalism is the problem. But when it comes to ai, Altman is the poster boy. When it comes to Proton, Yen is literally the person running the company. It's perfectly okay you use them as specific examples.

As far as it being a false dichotomy, I disagree. It's the very fact of the "orphan crushing machine" that makes me believe the only way to get a do over is the forcible removal of the people in charge of said machine. Oligarchy don't give a fuck, and they're the ones in charge. It's not like a shift in dominant political party will be a magic wand either; Europe, the us, the uk, and canada are all under the thumb of oligarchs in their dominant parties (with varying degrees of boots on necks) Hell, I think Australia is too, but I'm less familiar with their main parties.

There's really nowhere in the world right now that isn't crushed by capitalist assholes. They rule by money, even when not in office themselves. That doesn't disappear by changing from Republicans to Democrats, or Tories to Labor, or whatever biggest parties are in power (usually entrenched in power because of that money). So I don't see any realistic scenario that results in corporate AI being eliminated that doesn't also eliminate the assholes doing the crushing.

Also, I'm not really obligated to cram every single facet of things into one offhand comment. I didn't talk about fixing things because you can't fix corporate AI. You have to start over, though from what I've been told some of the open source models would mean not having to start entirely from scratch. Since what I was talking about was that, why waste my time? I mean, beyond tangential conversations like this being very slightly less likely. And I say tangential because the comment you responded to was from someone else, and the context was shifted slightly because of their shitty and smug analogy.

For real, people seem to expect things to fit some predetermined format, like comment sections have to be essays or debates to be graded. I made an offhand comment that summed things up in a way that matched my level of interest. You didn't like, that, and that's okay. But I don't owe anyone jack shit. I don't have to talk about fixing things, nobody does.

[–] XLE@piefed.social 4 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

It's not a false dichotomy? Proton couldn't help but use the Orphan Crushing Machine?

Why?

People want security from their product, not slop. There is literally nothing "inevitable" about using it. They can just choose to not.

[–] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 1 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago) (1 children)

For a false dichotomy to be a false dichotomy, one has to believe that there's are more than two alternate, opposing (at least partially) possibilities.

As previously stated as previously stated, I disagree that there are more than two options regarding the state of ai as it currently exists. Ergo, I don't agree they it is a false dichotomy. It's just a dichotomy.

You're free to disagree, that's okay. However, based on apparent tone, and what seems to be a misunderstanding of intent, I very much doubt that you feel the same way. It would seem I am not free to disagree with your premise. Restating that premise won't change my mind about my original statement, or the ways I've rephrased it so far. Nor will repetition of "orphan crushing machine". Which, again, you do you, but I ain't typing that out again and will just refer to it as capitalism, assuming we keep chatting casually. Once shit gets heated, I'm out though, I got too much shit going on in meatspace for that to be even remotely the way I'll spend my lemmy time.

Proton, being a product run by a capitalist, absolutely would not have taken a different path. It could have, but the non profit that owns a majority of proton chose their CEO, and neither stopped him, nor removed him since. So, back to the would not. They might still reverse course, engage with less problematic standpoints regarding ai (and, again repeating myself, my issue isn't with ai per se, it's how it's being used and mandated by proton leadership). I very seriously doubt that will happen. It isn't impossible, just very unlikely in light of the CEO still being in place after two different events where he put a giant piece of his foot in his mouth.

Now, regarding ai itself, it doesn't have to produce slop. Really, it doesn't. A sufficiently built model will be able to generate a lot of things that are fully functional. Ai isn't magic. It's a fancy bit of software. As long as the parameters are built well, and the people building it aren't chasing profits instead of safe, quality results, it will eventually get to the point that it's so much faster than and as capable as a human code expert. It isn't there yet, but at some point it will be.

Since resources are being hogged up by capitalist driven ai, I don't see it happening in a weedy that's acceptable without a radical reconstruction of human society. Hence my original comment.

I also disagree with your statement that the goal of proton users is security only. O would even disagree that it's security as a primary want. I would argue that privacy, when compared to companies like Google/alphabet is the predominant goal of users. Protonmail by itself isn't that secure. It can't be because it's not able to magically make recipients able to read their encrypted email. You can't mail from proton to gmail encrypted currently. That's inherently insecure. It is, however, more private so long as you only email people that don't use privacy hating providers.

Their other products, yeah, I can see those being chosen because they're more secure. Calendars, data storage, VPN, and password management can all be done in a way that's more secure than capitalist driven options. I would argue that whether or not proton can be considered secure should determined by their least secure, and most used services. VPN and email are those two, or were last I checked ( back when bitwarden began its flirtation with enshittification, so not long ago overall).

The VPN is up to standard overall. The email is no more or less secure than any other provider that can't ensure recipients can decrypt messages. That's the standard I believe is most useful in determining if "secure" is a valid adjective for proton as a company.

Since more people use them for email than anything else, if users really believe they're more secure, and that's why they signed up, well, I can't do anything about that, but I would still disagree that it means the average user "want security".


Ai was always inevitable. So long as computer science existed, it was going to happen because the entire point of computers is doing things for humans. We built them to crunch numbers faster and more reliably. ENIAC was rudimentary artificial intelligence in the broadest sense of the term. Everything since has been developing to where we are now in terms of the fundamental technology. Pong was rudimentary ai when you played against the computer. So were all the enemies in Mario brothers. So are the mobs in your preferred crpg.

Generative ai was always coming. It's only going to go away if it is utterly wiped out, in all forms, in a way that prevents humans from being able to start over. Best we can hope for is enough of a revolution to oust the capitalists using it to fuck over everyone else.

[–] XLE@piefed.social 2 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

That's a lot of text that doesn't address my core question of: why can't Proton just not use the slop box?

Literally nobody is making them . Their CEO could toss their silly manifesto. There's no guaranteed payout from this, and if anything it's hurting their brand. "Because capitalism" doesn't mean anything either, that's just a completely dead-end cliche. Slavery was part of capitalism too. Surely you'd not argue in favor of using it because it was inevitable.

You can have an opinion all day about inevitability, but I hope it's not just a baseless one.

[–] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 1 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

Okay, at this point I'm no longer in doubt that you mean things exactly the way you're saying them. You're not acting in good faith, I'm out.

Hope you have a nice rest of the day, but please do leave me out of it

[–] XLE@piefed.social 1 points 2 hours ago

Surely the simple counterexample ("slavery is inevitable") doesn't bring your entire philosophy down.

Well, perhaps it does.

[–] mad_lentil@lemmy.ca 11 points 10 hours ago

Yeah like imagine free and open language models trained from the ground up on data sources from people who willingly want to contribute to it, rather than ripped from everywhere and anywhere by companies desperate to make themselves valuable before the VC cash runs out.

[–] Paradoxeuh@jlai.lu 6 points 10 hours ago

You can clean up shit. But you can't cram it back in the dog's ass. Well, hypothetically, but you'll be covered in shit and have a very upset dog.

Best thing I've read this year, thank you.

[–] emmy5482@quokk.au 5 points 10 hours ago (1 children)

All we could do is rebuild it better. Less abusive, more regulations and controls, better planning. And I'm all for that, but it isn't as simple as your bad analogy makes it seem

Nothing in human history has ever proved this to be true.

We are in late stage capitalism. What you propose is as likely as cramming shit back into the dog.

Thankyou for coming to my ted talk.

[–] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 1 points 8 hours ago

If you go back to my initial comment, you may note that it contains the only path to that ending I see as realistic.