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Again, "the genocidal LANGUAGE" has been thrown around for thousands of years.
The WILL to end Israel is there. The ABILITY, not so much.
See:
https://www.memri.org/reports/fatwa-international-union-muslim-scholars-iums-based-and-funded-qatar-declares-armed-jihad
Memri was created by Yigal Carmon a former Israeli intelligence officer who opposed oslo accords. Please do better. Thr both side want to destroy each other BS only help isrsel and it's backers
Then maybe, just maybe, both sides need to stop calling for the destruction of the other.
https://www.cnn.com/2014/11/10/world/meast/iran-annihilate-israel
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/27/israel.iran
And before you go down the road of "they were misquoted" or "they didn't really MEAN that"...
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2006/2/20/iran-clarifies-remarks-on-israel
Yeah, that's the stance people who want a genocide always say:
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/haaretz-today/2024-09-05/ty-article/.highlight/netanyahus-map-shows-israel-from-the-river-to-the-sea-its-no-accident/00000191-c2a8-d09f-ab91-debc90e60000
"No, no, it was just an 'incorrect translation'." Horse shit.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-01-21/ty-article/israel-based-news-outlet-incorrectly-translates-pms-words-leading-to-media-firestorm/0000018d-2bfa-daf5-a1bf-affa764b0000
Maybe israel should end occupation to end the cycle of violence and you should support a one state eith equal rights and a truth snd reconciliation process. Or are you one of those guys who think jews and muslims has a natural urge to kill each others
Also stop conflating palestinians with all arabs and muslims that's a racist logic.
Palestinians want to live freely that's all. Only naive people would think after they are free from occupation palestinians will still attack. If you believe otherwise you are doing settler colonialism apologia without realizing it
You will never have equal rights in one state because the two sides will never allow that. Each believes the other should not exist.
Both sides are saying "From the river to the sea." They want the full elimination of the other.
That's anttisemetic. Both side are semite but you think it is in their nature to fight each other. Yes Any group of people can live in peace again like many periods before that you chose ignore. If germany who almost exterminate jews is not israel strongest ally, if countries that was enemy in the deadliest conflict ever can be become allies palestinians and israel can to.
You clearly don't believe in any solution neither a one or two state but you are in denial and don't realize it
Palestinians said you end occupation, we drop arms. Certain arabs offered a one state since the beginning, before the nekba. The plo also offered it
There was people like you who was tslking about how aparteith can't end in south africa because black South african would have took vengence for all the year of oppression
Did you ever ask any rrgular palestinian what they mean by from river to the sea palestine is free?
It has nothing to do with their nature, nobody is born hating anyone, that's learned behavior.
Both sides have stated, repeatedly, that they believe they are owed exclusive rights to the territory of Israel to the exclusion of all others.
That belief is inherently the source of the conflict. It's taught and learned and re-inforced by repeated violent acts.
It can't be stopped by anyone other than an external 3rd party stepping in and treating them like the misbehaving children they are. "I don't care who started it, both of you go to your rooms."
But nobody has the will to step up and tell them to knock this shit off.
If you don't believe that it is in their blood, why do you believe if israel end occupation , palestinians would still try to destroy israel? And why did you said a one state with equal rights will never happen when history is full of enemies turning to ally? Why are you ignoring one state proporsal by arabs?
"From the River to the Sea". Both the Palestinians and Israelis hold on to this. The only thing either will be satisfied with is the complete obliteration of the other.
There needs to be a forced separation. "You, go over here, you go over there, leave each other the fuck alone."
They won't do it themselves because they legitimately believe they have a right to ALL the territory.
This is why you get the numerous illegal Israeli settlements in Palestinian territory over and over and over again.
https://www.crisisgroup.org/visual-explainers/israeli-settlements/
Israel isn't going to stop it, they don't want to stop it. They want full occupation.
Palestine physically can't stop it.
You didn't answer a single question i asked in my last response. And from river to the sea palestinians means different thing from different person. The original use was by plo to refer to a one state and many other anti occupation believe the same. Just because some people hijacked the term doesn't mean we can't use it. Similar how conservstive hijacked the term woke from black people. You can disagree with the formulation i have no problem with that but please don't use it to talk about how all antioccupation people want to destroy israel. It is factually false
Maybe yes maybe not. Other people when was occupied may have thought the same like indian. Indian still got their freedom after 200 years. The longest occupation i believe was 700 years.
You can't expect palestinians to do nothing , at some point people are not in mental state to think rationally and to not take revenge legimate or not. That is not an justification but an acknowledge of the context and the issue to try to solve it.
If you lived in a word where someone can kill your family and your neighborhood and oppress other people you know and the police and the government know about it and let it happen . Not that only but they are protecting the killer. Trust me you would take vengence and cause a massacre
You misunderstand, I'm not here to answer your questions and have no obligation to answer them.
I'm explaining to you the situation on the ground over there with all the links necessary to understand it.
It's not that the Palestinians need to do more or have been doing the wrong things, it's that after being blockaded by Israel since the 90s they are physically incapable of doing anything effective. They don't have the resources.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip
They can't do it themselves, Israel won't allow anything else, it's going to require an external 3rd party to stop it and the world powers don't have the will to do it.
So what we're going to see is the inevitable back and forth until one side or the other are annihilated. There is no "winning" here.
Jordan you can't start of answering in place of a terrible user then use that as an excuse when called out.
You started this entire thing with something unrelated and now don't want to continue after showing how wrong you are? You don't get to keep doing this every fucking time
I'm not wrong. Both the Palestinians and the Israelis want to wipe the other out. Stated and quoted multiple times. "From the river to the sea." Both peoples are attempting to claim one land and that gets you generations of bloodshed.
The only real difference is the Israelis have the capacity to do it and the Palestinians do not. You aren't going to take over Israel throwing rocks and shooting what may as well be bottle rockets.
The only solution is for a 3rd party to separate them and make them behave, which nobody has the will to do, certainly not the US which is in the tank for Israel. Definitely not the U.N. which is blocked from acting by the U.S. Europe can't be bothered.
Absent that this will all just continue until one of them is killed to the last man. At this point, that's looking like the Palestinians.
One wants to eliminate the people living in the area and the other the government.
Either way that still ignores you eagerly jumping into a thread then yelling to stop as soon as it doesn't go your way
LOL no. That is not what they mean.
"From the river to the sea" is a genocidal statement when Netanyahu says it, it's equally genocidal when the Palestinians say it.
Eliminating the state doesn't revert the land to the people, only the elimination of all the people living there does that.
The difference is Palestinians want a land for both, which is what from the river to the sea means, while Israel wants just the land.
Again you're ignorance is astounding
Palestinians do not want the land for both, they want their land back and that means eliminating the Israelis who will not give it up willingly.
See the quote from Efraim Karsh quoted from "Arafat's War: The Man and His Battle for Israeli Conquest". 2004 Grove Press. here:
https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calls_for_the_destruction_of_Israel
"The new "free and democratic society" was perceived not as a true partnership between equal groups sharing sovereignty over a specific territory, but rather as an Arab-Muslim state in which Jews would be reduced to a permanent minority status, a modern-day version of the ahl al-dhimma" system of "protected non-Muslim minorities" that had existed since Islam's early days [...] The PLO's pretence that those Jewish citizens of the defunct state of Israel who would like to become citizens new Arab Palestine would be allowed to do so was patently false [...] the Palestinian National Covenant, revised in July 1968 [...] states explicitly that only those Jews "who were normally resident in Palestine up to the beginning of the Zionist invasion are Palestinians." Since most of Israel's citizens are an integral part of this "Zionist invasion," the practical meaning of this declaration is that the prospective Palestinian state would be virtually Judenrein[b]."
Bolding mine. The Judenrein link goes to this definition:
"A Nazi word to designate an area that has been "cleansed" of Jews during the Holocaust."
The plan is to cleanse Israel of Jews, full stop. Just as much as Israel wants to cleanse Israel of Palestinians. Neither side can be allowed to proceed with genocide, and yet nobody wants to stop them either.
Did you read your source or the references.
1 it's not even Palestinians but just a list of Arabs upset at the situation since the 40s, and 2 even has such references as Iran saying we do not wish to eliminate the people simply the Israeli government
https://www.france24.com/en/20191115-khamenei-says-iran-wants-removal-of-israel-state-not-people
You're entire argument is simply the same as what Israel is currently doing to the Palestinians expressed by 1 historian.
Again, eliminating the government will not, ever, reclaim the land.
Same with the "Land Back" idiots in the US. If the US government stopped existing today, that would not return a single square inch of land back to native peoples.
The only way to get the land back is to take it, and the only way to take it is to get rid of the people currently living there.
This is amazing. Because in your mind the only way to get land back is killing everyone, the only answer is the Palestinians want to kill everyone.
It's almost like the system needs to be changed completely just like in the USA to actually have equal rights for all.
They aren't giving it up voluntarily, are you not paying attention?
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/1/22/mapping-1800-israeli-settler-attacks-in-the-occupied-west-bank-since-october-7
"Please sirs, could you please give us our land back and stop killing us? Please?"
Good luck with that. Flip it around?
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-gunmen-kill-six-jerusalem-bus-stop-shooting-2025-09-08/
We're at a point where the violence is self perpetuating. The idea that the land can be shared is a pipe dream. The only solution is an enforced two state solution, neither side is capable of doing that on their own, and no 3rd party is willing to do it.
So it's just going to keep going like this until all of one side is dead.
Ah yes those getting oppressed must be good little victims and not resist! Totally the same as kill them all.
Regardless the point is Israel has to be treated like Germany before and South Africa, honestly so should the USA at this point, and have the government dismantled and replaced.
Reminder for all this argument from Jordan started by refusing to accept that was an option.
https://lemmy.sdf.org/comment/22618519 https://lemmy.sdf.org/comment/22618519
You misunderstand, they lack the capability of resisting. They don't have the manpower, equipment, or weapons to resist in any sort of realistic way.
They can't feed themselves, how do you expect them to resist?
30 years of an illegal blockade will do that.
Thank you for finally admitting the Palestinians aren't going to kill all the Israelis.
I never said they could, I said they WANT to, which they absolutely do.
Whatever their a chance it happen or not is not the point. No matter how impossible something is people should do the right thing and not dropping arms
How Israel succeeded in their plan means that no one is winning? t It would mean the genocidal state won with the complicity of the major western countries and the Arab leaders traitors . You are even contracting yourself in the same post. You say that Palestinians can't do nothing about Israel finishing it's final solution and at the same time claim that Palestinians can destroy Israel
Instead of both siding the conflict and dropping your arms . You should acknowledge the core issue , you should support never giving up. You should support any action trying to change the situation no matter how futile it is.
You clearly lack critical thinking and is too naive . This is my last reply to this useless conversation where you ignore every single argument
So many days I wonder if they became a mod simply because it made other people have to listen to them
They call for armed struggle against the occupying entity committing Genocide.
What is genocidal about this?
I am talking about historical actions. Actual persecution of Jews in Palestine under Islamic rule because they could. Not random statements taken out of context.
Again, repeated calls for the elimination of Israel. It's just as genocidal as the repeated calls for the elimination of Palestine.
Genocide cannot be committed against a country. Israel calls for genocide against Palestinians.
By claiming to want to "wipe Israel off the map", that's a desire to eliminate Israelis which is the definition of genocide.
https://iccforum.com/genocide-convention
✅ (a)Killing members of the group;
✅ (b)Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
✅ (c)Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d)Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e)Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Damn that's crazy. I didn't know Nelson Mandela committed Genocide on Apartheid South Africa. Thanks explaining how genocide works.
That's not me, that's the Article 2 of the Genocide Convention. You'd think someone named "Geneva Convenience" would already know that.
Which group is "the country of Israel" part of? Is there a difference between a country and people?
Or do you think they issue a fatwa for Jihad against this guy? https://youtu.be/V1bFr2SWP1I
So you are saying that when Iran says "wipe Israel off the map" they aren't targeting the Jewish majority of Israel? Because that's EXACTLY what they are doing.
Same as when Netanyahu says Israel wants to control all the land from the river to the sea, he's talking about wiping out all the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza (although he has his eyes on Syria, and Lebanon too).
Both statements are affirmations of genocide.
Yep, the will to end Israel is there. It's also here.
Remember when the German state was dismantled because it comitted a genocide?
It seems like you believe anti-zionism and anti-semitism is the same thing. One is an ethnic group (technically several, including palestinians, but we all know it usually means jewish people) and the other is a nationality.
Not all jews are zionists, and not all zionists are jews.
Let's dismantle the genocidal state, give displaced palestinians the right to return to their country, try every war criminal and genocidal maniac in an international court and let the Palestinian people decide how the want to run their own fucking country, for once.
Oh, no, anti-semitism and anti-zionism are two very different things. Just how some people can't separate the difference between American patriotism and white supremacy. Related? Overlapping? Sure, but not the same.
Here's the problem... The Palestinian people HAVE decided, multiple times, how they want to run their own country and Israel has rejected it multiple times.
The first time, they elected the PLO, Israel declared them terrorists and began a war of aggression.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Liberation_Organization
Down to even attempting to assassinate a US Ambassador who dared to recognize and communicate with the PLO:
https://www.wrmea.org/2004-may/israel-s-failed-assassination-attempt-on-u.s.-ambassador-documented.html
The second time they went "You know what? If you're going to call us terrorists and treat us like terrorists ANYWAY, fine, fuck it, here's Hamas. Good luck!" Hamas won 74 of the 132 seats in Parliament.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election
Israel now takes the position "there are no innocent Palestinians".
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/artc-poll-62-of-israelis-say-there-are-no-innocent-people-in-gaza
Yet another thing Bush can burn in hell for:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/10/was-hamas-elected-to-govern-gaza-george-w-bush-2006-palestinian-election.html
But would it have been any different if the 2006 election HAD been shut down the way Israel wanted? Unlikely, because like I say, Israel has been pulling this shit longer than that, Hamas is just their latest excuse.
Israel doesn't want Palestine to exist, full stop. The feeling is mutual. The only real solution is a forced co-existence which neither side really wants.
Don't pretend like you understand people in Palestine. You know that you don't.
And don't pretend that anyone can decide how the want to run their country while it is being occupied by a foreign power that kills children without remorse.
It's great that you want to show you have some understanding of history, but you weave back and forth and talk about mutuality, while you repeatedly recognize Israel sabotaging every attempt at peace.
Israel is the problem. Palestine is being occupied and genocided.
Don't try to calm your conscience by rationalizing yourself into inaction.
The solution is stopping the genocide, ending Israeli occupation and giving palestinians the right to return to their land.
Well, I personally know people brutalized by the illegal Israeli occupation in Southern Lebanon, so, yeah, I just might.
One of them was a doctor. Israeli troops would roll up on his house in the middle of the night, tell him if he resisted he would be shot, hauled him off to treat some prisoner, and then would dump him at the side of the road like so much garbage when they were done with him... until the next time...
But, yeah, what do I know...
Let me answer that for you.
You don't. Feeling empathy with someone does not mean you understand their living conditions.
Stop grasping at straws and admit to yourself you don't know what you are talking about.