cross-posted from: https://midwest.social/post/36729179
I got banded from ~~Hexbear~~ (I am dumb) a Hexbear community. Not that I am super sad about it. More confused...
This is the post that did me in: https://midwest.social/post/36684138/20435030
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Nothing will change if you don't believe it can. If all this does is delay fascism for a day. That's one less day of people dying and suffering for really stupid and avoidable reasons. Seriously, what's the point of your comment? Are you trying to get me bummed out and not vote? by deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: Wrecker.
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Yes, I agree. This is simply a stop gap measure. I'm not saying to stop doing all the other stuff like protesting and organizing. Voting is just one afternoon. For some people it's really easy to do, it's way easier than other stuff that you're probably already doing. by deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: Wrecker.
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I thought roe v wade was gone because Obama did kick Mitch McConnell in the nutz for not doing his job and appointing his supreme Court judge. What did Biden do to row v wade? by deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: Wrecker.
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Cuz I don't need to engage with your material. This is sooooooo simple. Just vote for the guy who is less fascist. Are you confused about whether fascism is bad? Guess what? It's bad! Lots of innocent people dying bad. Are you confused about which presidential candidate is the least fascist? That would be Biden. You should vote for him. Everyone should vote for him in this next election. This is your 100th chance to not come off as a fascist supporter. You better take it! by deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: Wrecker.
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Define failed practice? What do you think would have happened if Biden had lost the last election to Trump? Four years of Trump almost tore this country to pieces. I'm sorry fighting is hard. I'm not asking you to be pro-democrat. I'm just asking you not to doomer everyone into not voting at all. Guess what? Fascists vote and they organize and they don't get doomer about this stuff. If you're not going to help then get out of the way. by deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: Wrecker.
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First of all, you're confusing me with somebody who likes the Democrats. I don't. I don't like either party. Second of all, why the hell are you acting like there's a third choice between a Democrat and Republican? When was the last time an independent candidate came even close to winning? We currently only have two choices for president. I beg of you or anyone else that is reading this. Please vote for the less fascist one. Again, I don't like this. But acting like there's absolutely no difference between Biden and Trump is the the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. by deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: Wrecker.
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I know! So simple right? by deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: Wrecker.
mod Banned deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: west purginia, mountain mama (lib :farquaad-point:)
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If you have the numbers to start a violent revolution. You have the numbers to do reform. Unless you plan on dying a glorious death with no change in outcome. I'm not saying electoralism is the only answer. Keep protesting. Keep organizing. Keep spreading information. Do you know what would give you more time to build that revolutionary army? If Biden was president for four more years. by deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: Wrecker.
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I don't need to prove that Biden opposes fascism. I just have to prove the other candidate would be more fascist. We only have two choices. This should be really simple. Pick the one that's less fascist. Why is this so hard for you? Are you unsure which president would cause a less fascist outcome between Biden and Trump? This is really simple, it's Biden, vote Biden! Voting is one afternoon. Waiting in a line. Filling out a ballot. I know it sucks. Your feelings are valid. Vote Biden because fascism is bad. Do you know who's not going to vote Biden. All the fascists. They're going to be voting for whoever the Republican candidate is. Do you know who they really want? They want Hitler2 for president. Do you know what they're not doing? Complaining about that and doomering over it. This is incredibly simple. by deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: Wrecker.
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Biden is better than a fascist. Seriously, what's the point of your comment? Are you trying to get me to give up start licking that boot? by deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: Wrecker.
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Biden is better than a fascist. Seriously, what's the point of your comment? Are you trying to get me to give up start licking that boot? by deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: Wrecker.
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You just want to shoot people. You want people to die due to fascism. So that you can LARP as a revolutionary soldier. Listen if a violent revolution was going to be successful. Liberal democracy would have turned the USA into socialism by now. If you're going to start a revolution, you have to make sure you have more than 50% of the population on your side, at a minimum. The more population on your side the less death will occur. If more than 50% of the population agrees with you, democracy will work just fine. No need to murder bone. Unless you want to. In which case none of this conversation makes any difference. by deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: Wrecker.
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Yes, do all of that! And vote! Voting is pretty easy compared to the other things on that list. Do what you can. Do all of them if you can. I don't like the Democrats. I don't like saying that we should support the Democrats. But the Democrats are right now the least fascist of the two parties that we have to pick between. I am acting smug, because it appears to me this group has some whiny babies who can't vote. Seriously, how can you fight fascists in the street and then just not vote? I think voting would be really easy compared to fighting fascists. Convincing cucked liberals to vote for Biden is a nice baby step for them. by deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: Wrecker.
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Okay if you believe all that then shut up. Die quietly and let everyone else die fighting. All you're doing is spread doomer bullshit that isn't helping anyone. If you want to stop being miserable. Join the fight! by deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: Wrecker.
mod Banned deaf_fish @lemm.ee from the community Labour
reason: Wrecker.
expires: 2 years ago
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Wow, this whole post is psy op. Vote Biden people! The only other option will be a fascist or fascist enabler. I don't like it anymore than you do. by deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: No.
Good, so that begs two questions:
How do you think you get rid of Capitalism?
Once you get rid of it, how so you defend against its reimplementation?
Ahh, now we getting to it!
Well there are 3 ways I can think of.
If I had a magic wand, I would do 2. Given I don't have a magic wand. I think given our current, material conditions, I would shoot for 3. Finally, I think, if all else fails, I would join in 1.
Now I am familiar with the problems of 3. You really need to have a voting population who is on it. In it to win it. Understand politics. That is a very big ask, and I am not sure we got it. Also the longer we sit in 3. The more people suffer though this fascist situation we have. So that is pretty horrible. On the plus side, maybe if we sit long enough in 3, 2 will happen, but there is no guarantee.
So I find this a hard question to answer, it requires a crystal ball. I don't know how many lives would be harmed in either direction. If I knew I would pick the direction with the least amount of violence towards the least amount of people.
If you are talking about have some kind of democratic or representative system. You would need to propagandize that this system that no longer exists is bad and we shouldn't try to re-implement it. Bad actors will be pushing for it.
Otherwise you could go the authoritarian rout and somehow keep that out, but kings fell to Capitalism before.
So it is hard. I don't really have a good answer here either. My though would be to kick the can down the road. I will try to get rid of Capitalism with my generation, how to keep it dead, that is a future generations problem.
The Marxist stance is that 2 and 3 are impossible. Revolution can be less violent, of course, but without force there is no revolution. The reason 3 is impossible is because you're relying on the political structure of capitalism to go against itself. Democracy in capitalism isn't real, there's no physical law holding it accountable, and there are numerous checks against change. Just look at what happened to Allende.
As for preventing reimplementation, it requires collectivization of production and distribution, and a state that oppresses capitalists and is under control of the working class. This is how socialist states function in the real world and historically.
So from a utilitarian standpoint the moral stance is accelerationism, right? Or is there any reason to slow the progress of fascism? Possibly to organize?
I think this is where I get stuck with my discussions in Hexbear. I say things like "Biden will result in less fascist outcomes in the short term vs Trump" and the ideology is such that the average Hexbearian can't really engage with that line of thinking because there is only violent revolution. It would be immaterial to them who won any election. They don't have the rhetoric you have, so they start ad homing me and then I start ad homing them in response, then the thread gets deleted because I am a liberal or something like that. No judgment, I don't think the average person should be expected to have the rhetoric on hand. Just frustrated how much text I have spilled.
Yeah, and for that last a long time. I feel like there is no guaranteed defense against capital. People forget things over time and capitalism while stupid, feels good and right, like tribalism.
No, accelerationism is also wrong. We should organize and build up dual power, doing the best we can to prepare for revolution while making things as good aa possible with what we have. We just recognize that electoralism is not a tool we can use. Biden and Trump both are genocidal imperialists, neither is an actual improvement.
As for capitalism, I really don't know what you're saying here. It's only a few hundred years old, it isn't instinctual.
I agree, neither is an improvement, but one would have given us at least 4 more years without such and extreme shift towards fascism. Is it not easier to organize without being labeled a terrorist?
Yeah, sorry, not saying it is instinctual, well not directly, I'm saying it feels good to think you are the person that owns production. I have played video games where you play as the capitalist. Feel really good to be in that position. I am sure there is some instinct in there some place, but not that it is specific to capitalism.
I'm labeled a terrorist by both parties, though. It isn't an easier under the DNC, and further, the fascism was already here.
As for it feeling good to be a capitalist, kinda? In a collectivized system there's no compulsion towards such a position, though, so that doesn't really factor in.
Yeah, that makes sense. I guess I lack that perspective. I will have to think on it.
Yeah, DNC effectively controlled opposition IMHO. I'm not trying to say there should be serious organizational efforts made to vote in a Democrat. I understand the ideological reason why it doesn't matter who wins. I don't understand the practical standpoint of not saying, "yeah, sure if you are in a situation where your vote matters, and it isn't too much of a hassle for you, vote for the less fascist candidate."
It's more about the fact that for the vast majority of people there isn't even a choice to have a meaningful vote, and that people cling to voting as a vehicle for change that doesn't exist.