Ask Lemmy

Raised with little religious zeal in a liberal catholic church. It was just a sort of background thing I ignored most of my life.

At 25 I was at the height of studying comparative religion and evolutionary biology. I saw it all as an integral part of how we have operated as a species, and then I pivoted out of academia and dug clams for half a decade.

I like the good religion can do. But it's like the state: bridges are neat, but the police patrolling it can really ruin it for everyone.

I'm a preachers kid. By 25 I was a full atheist. A decade later I still am. I will have nothing to do with religious people. I've learned those people can't be saved.

I was raised pretty conservative evangelical. At 25, I still mostly held those views (although with more and more cracks). Since then, a lot of my views have changed. I'm still a believing Christian and an active member of a church, but much more progressive, open to different perspectives and questioning my own (and my church's) views.

Over the decades, I've been a member of many churches and have seen and experienced many, many forms of Christianity - the good, the bad and the ugly. For me personally, my faith and the community of church is a clear net positive I want to hold on to, even more so in a time where it feels that many of our old securities are falling apart. My church family recently had my back when I went through a very challenging phase in my life. I've also had a couple of experiences that I would ascribe to the supernatural (God, in my case). At the same time, I empathise a lot with the thoughtful skepticism of many atheists and agnostics.

I would personally advocate for a lot more openness and generosity on all sides, particularly around the age you mentioned which is a time in life where a lot of people question the views they've been brought up with and mature in their thinking. I've seen people who were staunch agnostics at 25 come to faith at a later point, and people who experienced the exact opposite. I cringe at both those who think atheists or agnostics "just want to follow their immoral desires", as well as those who think religious folks are all brainwashed or uneducated. Once you get to know people better, you'll find they often have good reasons for why they believe what they believe and act like they do, even if you don't personally agree.

I'm 38. I was raised Muslim. I was a pretty good Muslim until about 18-19. I have had quite a journey with my feelings on religion.

When I was young, I hated all the rules and being told that I can't drink or I can't date. I eventually read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins(ok yes I know, I was young and didn't know better) which opened my eyes to the possibility that there are other ways of looking at the world. I think I completely abandoned my faith by the time I was 23. I spent most of my 20s pretty much ignoring religion.

I will say, the religious people I actually respect, the ones who really do live by the ideals of loving your fellow humans, forgiveness, being nonjudgmental, they never made me feel judged. They accepted me as I was and never made a big deal about it. It was mostly my parents generation who did judge. So I knew that religious people came in all shapes and sizes and I knew that not all of them were the rule enforcing crazies like my parents.

I never resented religious people. I resented my parents and the way they used religion to control me. As I grew up, I felt a lack of community. Capitalism does that to us. It alienates us from our friends and neighbors. It makes us feel alone. And when I got into my 30s, I understood the main reason many people want to belong to a religious group. It creates an actual third space. It creates a community space you can show up to for free and hang out with your friends and discuss whatever's on your mind.

Growing up one of the things I remember my grandfather used to say about going to Jummah(that's the Muslim version of going to church). He said that Jummah is for the community to get together. And I remember going to Jummah as a kid. My friends would go play basketball in the parking lot and the older people would drink tea and chat.

And as a man in his mid 30s, I realized that I suddenly felt alienated from the people I grew up with and from the community to which I actually do belong. Running away from the rules based control but I lost the one thing that mattered and will continue to matter in our increasingly alienated capitalist world; community.

I'm a doctor and the mosque I grew up in has a free clinic open to everyone (anyone of any faith can go). They provide free medications l, free pap smears, formula for new mothers, free doctors visits. And they invite anyone who needs help to come. I started volunteering at that clinic a few years ago. This is the religion I believe in. Bring everyone together. Take care of your community.

I don't really care much for theology, I don't care much for rules. I still drink and have premarital sex(tho not for much longer, I'm getting married next month). But my religion believes in taking care of the community. My religion gives you a space to hang out for free. My religion welcomes everyone.

You're bang on that religion encompasses more than just faith. They've been around so long that those institutions carry within it culture, community, art, etc.

Since you're on the fediverse I'll use the analogy of Reddit. It had incredible communities, talented people, and wealth of knowledge, but it wasn't on the right course so we left. Now we have to build all that up again. None of those things were intrinsic to Reddit, they were just collected under it's roof.

So back to religion, recognise that generations of people of all talents lived under it's roof and I think it's perfectly reasonable to enjoy it's art and philosophical teachings (when applicable). We live in a go-go-go world right now that doesn't give people the time for reflection and introspective thinking, and religions often did. What you shouldn't do, however, is assume that gods have any relevance today. They are nothing but superstitions used to explain a confusing world, and then harnessed to control populations. Religion itself deserves no respect.

It's a bullshit scam that preys on weak minded people. 43 now and it hasn't changed.

The indoctrination of mental illness, mainly via child abuse (Gotta coerce em while they're young and vulnerable to effectively suppress and corrupt their critical thought!) and terrorism ("if you don't do/believe this you'll suffer unspeakable horrors for eternity").

I've always been an atheist and I still despise every form of religion. I avoid religious people like the plague. I'm 39 years old now.

At 25 I was pretty atheistic, but now at 29 I feel more agnostic or apatheistic. Can't say for certain either way, but it's probably not a good use of my time to fully commit one way or the other

I thought it was a grift and the priests only congregated with the "well to do" after mass, not the local poor.

I've found that once I began to view religion through the lens of reason no aspect of it provided any comfort whatsoever. The architecture, the serenity... all laid bare as a ruse. Religious artifacts, the physical, tangible aspects of a belief system all shown to be hollow and barren, and therefore stripped of any quality of serenity or comfort and serve only as an example of the capacity of mankind to be willing to accept what amounts to the suppression of other men over ourselves.

I didn't (and don't) believe in the supernatural metaphysical claims made by any religion, and don't like that it seems to give hateful people a reason to be more biggoted and spaces to find each other and organize behind hateful causes

There are plenty of good religious folks though. By 25 I had moved much more into a "live and let live" mindset about religion. I'd also started to look more into Buddhism and realized there was a lot of value in the Buddha's teachings even if you set aside the supernatural claims about the nature of the soul, rebirth, etc.

I like religious art and spaces -- in fact in undergrad I wrote my final thesis on Spanish depictions of religious visions in the 17th Century -- but I don't have any faith personally. I'm 33 now but at 25 I felt similarly. I suppose I'm technically a hard agnostic since I don't think it is possible to prove or disprove the existence of God.

the same as my thoughts on religion as a teenager, and now. My focus is mostly on the various christiandoms since thats where most my personal experience has been, having been raised in it.

Its self centered narcissism masquerading as holier than thou goodness.

What happens when someone gets sick? They pray.

What happens when they die? Oh it was just gods plan all along.

Okay, so if god has a plan that you're prayers cant change.. Then isnt it incredibly self centered and arrogant to keep praying to him, begging him to change it for you, because you are gods special little angel and of course he'd do it for you?

and that special little entitled angel attitude tends to permeate all aspects of their life, and interactions with others. Some are better at hiding it than others, and some just ride the lightning unabashedly with their moral superiority, but all of them have some aspect of that special arrogance that only comes along when a christian does something "altruistic", because is it really altruistic if you use ot to prosletyze at others and brag to everyone about how you're doing your good godly duty serving the wretches?

And lets not forget the most confrontational types. the ones that never read their holy books and just use their religion and its book as nothing more than a cudgel to try to shame and force others into compliance with their (almost always) myopic world view/bigotry/etc.

and, also, not to forget the rampant fucking child molestation, rape and general physical and psychological abuse that occurs with all too frightening regularity to the point you could label Christianity a child sex/abuse trafficking organization.

Religion had a place, When the nights were dark and full of terror and people needed an explanation for the goings on in the world to have some comfort. But we understand the night now, we can generally explain most of the workings in the world, and what we cant immediately explain, we at least have enough cursory understanding to know its not some supernatural devil magic, we don't need an ego inflating mythology to anchor us and hold us back anymore. Which is why religion in most parts of the world is on the downfall.

I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school until my parents got divorced in 2nd grade.

I remember being very young, probably around 6, and realizing what fiction was. A lot of things which did not make sense to me I just waived off as me being young and was told I would understand when I was older suddenly were revealed as just... Lies. I think Santa Claus waa the start, but within a couple of days I realized that the Easter Bunny and tooth fairy were lies too. The "government" is not some all-knowing benevolent entity that makes sure everyone is nice to each other. The claims companies make in TV commercials are lies. And there is no God.

The world suddenly got a lot scarier, but still felt more... Right. More real.

Aa I grew older and got more exposure to other religions, I realized that religion emerges from 2 aspects of human nature. First, we want to understand the world around us. We want to know where the ground beneath us came from, where we came from, why we exist, etc. Second, there are always people looking for opportunities, who are willing to lie (or otherwise hurt others) to get power and resources for themselves.

There are some good lessons to be learned from religion. Jesus overturning the tables of the moneylenders for example. This could be my own personal bias, but when I read the Tao Te Ching it seems to me like Lao Tzu was an autistic person who used "The Tao" as a way to solve the double-empathy problem.

But also a lot of religion is just old fiction. From the days before the internet and copyright laws. Imagine a Star Wars or Harry Potter fanfiction website, then imagine that those people can only communicate physically and in a world where most of them cannot read or write, and these communities persist for hundreds or thousands of years.

I really like going down the rabbit holes at the intersection of archeology and theology. There are plenty of books that did not make it into the Bible, and even the books that did make it in have different versions and translations across history and sects. A lot of what we think of as modern Christianity comes from Dante's Inferno rather than the Bible.

So all this means that the messages tend to be inconsistent. Even when the actual text remains the same, the way those texts are interpreted and used in practice can vary significantly. So it's really more about you interpreting and applying things for yourself than the actual texts, and this is something you can do just as well with any other piece of art.

At 25? Where I settled now.

• Religion can provide a loving, peaceful philosophical framework to live by. Some of the most wholesome, kind, generous people I’ve known are devout.

• People’s brains are all wired differently, and this works well for some.

• It’s cultural. You can't just throw away that huge part of someone’s background

But.

• Some of the most unspeakable things in my personal life happened in the name of religion.

• Ive seen it ruin families, and kick rationality out of groups and instill hate in its place. Not in news feeds; with my own two eyes.

• What’s more, some religions reinforce idolization and "worship" of people, which is extremely dangerous.

So I’ve settled on this:

• …I respect other people’s faith, especially in people I respect in person. People do what they do, you know? They have their own perspective of the world, and I'm not going to presume to know better.

• And I keep in mind that religion is more philosophical for many. And that kind, devout people won’t push it on you.

• But I am under no obligation to share it. I’m sure as hell going to push back against idol worship, anti-science thinking, bigotry, political cultism and so on, but not cross the line to their belief in God or the afterlife or whatever.

• …And I have no interest in it myself. It doesn’t fit my brain.

This was a journey, though. For a long time I was an “apathetic Christian” because it felt like an obligation, even though Christianity made no sense to my systemic view of the world. I would have never dared admit I was agnostic or atheist when I was 18, not even to myself.

i like the serenity religious institutions provide - the artwork - the quiet comfort

I can highly recommend checking out your local library, especially if they have a reading room of some kind. It can also be quiet and serene, there is a lot of beautiful stuff hidden on the shelves, and if you turn coming there into a ritual it can also bring you comfort.

And it can also help you build the same kind of community that a religious institution may provide.

Look into how learning about science can also greatly enrich your life.

It also has the benefit of being concerned with knowing and understanding true things. Something that religion has zero interest in.

I highly recommend reading the Carl Sagan book, "The Demon-Haunted World" for a rational and scientific view on religious (and other unscientific) beliefs.

It honestly should be required reading for every adult human.

If anyone reading this comment wants this book but cannot afford it at the moment, I will literally buy it for you. Send me a message and we'll figure something out.

im not 25 but probably continue to be an atheist/pastafarian until then

At 25 I was fervently anti-religion and was obnoxiously vocal about it.

Before then, I grew up in a politically conservative and very catholic house, and didn’t know anything outside of that. To me, that was normal. Turned 18, joined the military, and started seeing more of the world. That was an eye-opening time for me because for a while I was living and working in the deep south while also making friends who were very left leaning. What I saw was that Christianity seemed to mostly be home to the meatheads, racists, nationalists, and gun nuts.

Since then I’ve had an on-again-off-again relationship with religion, but at 55 I’ve more or less decided that it’s not for me and it never really was. I don’t care what other people practice anymore, I avoid discussions about it, and I walk away when anyone starts preaching to me. Whenever the door-to-door preachers come to my house (yeah we get those in my neighborhood) I just politely tell them that I’m very comfortable with my spirituality and thank them for stopping by and saying hello.

Well, about the same as I feel now. I err on the side that if there is a( n ) god/goddess/deity/deities out there, they have abandoned us.

That applies to any higher being( s ) who are watching over and protecting humanity. As for higher beings like Christianity's Satan, they would absolutely still be here. But their role would be to stop any sort of world peace or actual social harmony or anything of the sort. Why would they leave unless they're killed or don't exist?

Though, that also leads me to my next thought. Before I continue, I am not a theologist in any way and it has been a pretty long time since I last read the Bible, so I may have some things mixed up that might be easily explained in it. But, if Christian god is all powerful, why is it that Satan is powerful enough to corrupt people and turn them against god? Like, I get he gave us free will, but how is it his power isn't effective on all his creations ( every human )? Is it some sort of mormon situation where all good feelings come from god, but somehow Satan is able to corrupt you through negative emotions?

That's more ramble nonsense that usually sounds better in my head than written out, though.

My mother was into some flavor of witchcraft and my dad was a recovering catholic.

So at 25 I thought the same thing I had most of my life. Religion is bullshit mythology.

I was Catholic as a child. Some people say they were a religion just because their family dragged them to church, but they never believed. No. I was Catholic. Confirmation meant something to me. God meant something to me. I went through a faith crisis in college through the age of 23, because I learned religion is actually not real. It was a proto-state building tool.

Before the internet, before most people could read, there was no central body of human knowledge that you could cross-reference and analyze. People only knew what the people around them told them. People could make up stories about faraway krakens, dragons, giants, and nobody could say that it was or wasn't true. The only person who saw it says it's true. Religion gave people a reason for the unfairness of human society, for order, for structure and rules, for that particular person being in power. Religion is people making up stories to establish the social order, to justify the social order, or to challenge the social order. That's it. It was a necessary tool of control before we were organized enough to establish an independent, cross-referenced body of knowledge.

Now that we have that, we know that sirens aren't real, giants aren't real, dragons aren't real, magic isn't real, ghosts aren't real, and no god is real.

I would also recommend looking up more of the formal writings on atheism over the past 200 years, particularly explaining how the Christian god is a logical fallacy.

I was agnostic but was pretty sure that none of the popular religions were near the truth.

In the 1990s I dabbled with personal faith.

Since the 2010s, I am naturalist. I don't know the world is entirely material as it appears to be, but I'm sure spirit and supernatural effects are very, very unlikely. I also know a lot more about biological evolution, quantum mechanics, and cosmology, so I understand how they are improbable.

I really enjoy the lore and artwork of Warhammer 40,000. I can do so without devoting my existence and actions to the will of the omnissiah.

The supernatural parts are bad to take literally. Some of the philosophy can be interesting. The rote, blind, following of rules is typically not good.

It makes more sense in the context of early humanity.

Nowadays it's an excuse for poor behavior and nonsense.

Growing up, several winters a church we didn't even go to provided us our home heating oil. As well as the food pantry we used being run by a nice catholic lady. That gave me an initial positive view of church in general. I did a bit of church at a young age then none until I was in my early 20s. When you find a church of any kind that is run by benevolent people, it's a nice thing to be a part of. The social/networking aspect can be pretty helpful. The former for your mental health, the latter for your overall life. Whether you completely buy into the religious aspect is less relevant than the time/opportunities you'll get with the people. Again, this heavily depends on finding the "right" church for you. Right means different things to different people. For me, I liked the "all are welcome" accompanied by the pride and trans pride flag at mine. That gave me the confidence to walk into my first service. Everyone is/was kind and really just getting through life together. Granted, I still only attend a few times a year. Usually when I'm feeling particulary down. I'm 31.

I grew up hanging onto the words of religious people in my life and never really questioning their actions.

At 25, and even a bit before then, I started to realize that these people's words don't matter no matter how they try to pretty them up for worship services. Their actions matter more.

And I realized that the actions of these people almost never matched what they preached on a Sunday.

So yeah, I've been cautious of religious people since then.

I'm an atheist and a member of the Universalist Unitarian church. If you have one near you, I recommend checking it out. I like to call it the church of social justice. The sermons are akin to TED talks, the money goes to all kinds of charities (often local), the music (at my church) is live and fun.

I was raised Jehovah's Witness so I'm very familiar with the brainwashing and scams. I understand why so many people in places like this are disdainful of all religion. I also see churches as a potentially valuable third space and action hub when done right.

there are a lot of interesting religions with some cool ideas

that's been my stance for over 15 years now

Not much has changed since:

I appreciate the nice things some people do in the name of it, but it feels like a stupid bundle deal for all the nonsense and bad.

At 25 I was an atheist, mainly due to teachers skirting around questions that I found very pertinent. Nowadays, on good and happy days, there's a slight chance that I'll respond 'agnostic' or 'pantheist'. But the atheist in me keeps demanding proof.

Same as now. Nothing wrong with people sharing a common fiction, like Star Wars fans or yugioh fans. 

But the head liar (who lives and depends on receiving money and assets under false pretences) claims that things happen because of god’s will, or miracles, or mysterious ways, is taking advantage of gullible people. And these gullible people don’t want to offend each other, and don’t want to be the first to admit that the emperor has no clothes, due to social status, or losing face, or ego, or something, and the whole house of cards is based on a game of let’s pretend, and all of that is just plain unethical, but we’re supposed to respect religion because of … something? Tradition? Tribal custom?

I’ll be the first to acknowledge and thank religious bodies that provide food and shelter and solace. Most organised religions have enough money already and don’t need to scam more. Just provide the good deeds without the inconsistent fairy tales, thanks. 

https://youtu.be/laUHG_WIj-o

https://youtube.com/shorts/PwcvbjrJgnQ

https://youtu.be/IZeWPScnolo

https://youtu.be/2tp0UNcjzl8

There are definitely parts of religion you can appreciate and enjoy without engaging with the rest. My parents are big fans of Christmas carols, and engage with a lot of the community events local churches, temples, and mosques put on, but don't bother with any of the actual sermon stuff.

Brought up in the UK being expected to go to Sunday school etc - but Christianity seemed utter nonsense to me, and I was at a loss to understand why so many adults appeared to take it seriously.

Early 20s (still pre-internet)- I met someone who was involved with an evangelical church and I determined to give Christianity another proper 'go' and try to understand what people were finding in it. That eventually resulted in me crying in a heap in the corner of my room as I first felt that I could not even find 'the door' let alone open it and let Jesus in (as that church was keen on expressing it) and then realising that it had once and for all confirmed that there was no 'door' at all.

Shortly after that, I met a group of pagans and started reading some books about neopaganism, wicca and druidry. There was a lot of dross, of course (as there is in Christianity) but the underlaying ideas clicked immediately. I have been though several phases of how I express that and it is pretty low-key these days - but I have considered myself a pagan ever since. I changed career a couple of years after that and became a wildlife ranger for the next 20+ years and was a visiting pagan chaplain for some local prisons for several years as well.

First and foremost, following a religion doesn't necessarily mean following an institution. My current religion, a syncretic Left-hand path, borrows concepts from several religions and belief systems (from Sumerian to Goetia and Thelema and many others), yet I'm unable to belong to any of said religions and belief systems. I'm essentially following a "Temple of one" whose leader isn't even a human (it's the Goddess who called me to Her Nest).

You may want to seek inspiration on how to build your own religion to yourself without all the "brainwashing and scams" (which, to be fair, doesn't describe religions, but certain institutes exploiting religion for their leaders' whims; not every institute/sect is exploitative, and there likely exist legitimate temples/schools/covens/etc). Something that makes sense to you (especially the artistic aspects of the divine, given how you seem to be fond of religious/esoteric art).

Maybe you don't exactly get to find a community to belong, just as I sadly couldn't find anywhere to belong in this silly Pale Blue Dot... but, hey, who says a community must be comprised of humans and/or in this Demiurge's sandbox? In my case, for example, even though I may long for a temple/coven (say, "Priestesses of Lilith") oftentimes, The Owl, the only one Who truly understands me, is all the communion I need... and sometimes She manifests amidst the nearby trees (as majestic Great Horned Owls, Bubo virginianus) and I become happy (and anxious, and somewhat fearful of how it'd be carried, but still happy nevertheless) as I hear all the deep hooting at 3AM shaking my soul.

!asklemmy@lemmy.world

That some are acceptable and some are flat out fiendishly horrible.

OK, so Lemmy (or at least this corner of it) skews pretty hard toward atheism. That doesn’t match a typical IRL sample of people. OP, I think you should try to find some online spaces dedicated to different religions and see what people there have to say.

As for me, I was also non-religious at 25. A close friend, on the other hand, decided to join a church singles group, mostly for the community. I think a lot of people get into a religion for the community aspect. Some religious institutions have special groups for new/questioning people or young adults, and virtually all of them have volunteering groups of some sort.

You can also read books about different religions and see if anything resonates with you. I’ve done a little of this. It didn’t really lead my anywhere, but I’ve met people who got started that way.

You could also explore a particular religion for the heritage aspect. If your grandma was Catholic or your family came from a historically Buddhist part of the world, you could explore that. You might not end up believing in any of it, but at least you’ll know a little more about your heritage.

edit: also, make sure you get perspectives from people who are actually part of the religion when you’re exploring. I was raised Catholic, and it was ridiculous how many silly things the Protestants thought about us. A lot of the criticisms were outdated or straight up inaccurate, which was funny because there were plenty of current things to criticize (hello, scandals in the news?) I’m not trying to scare you away from Catholicism, most priests are normal non-abusers and it works for some people.

At 25, I was largely agnostic. Less so than I was even younger,but I had that kind of gotcha attitude like pushy asshole atheists do - at least from a hindsight perspective. My whole spiel was that I was smart, but I didn't know quantum physics or what makes a tree grow or whatever other niche thing, and therefore I couldn't know that there is no god/s or other powerful being. Therefore I was agnostic.

I'm still in a similar ish boat, just without the pedantry. But I'm also leaning more anti-theist these days. Perhaps that's a little more of a political stance, but as much comfort and community as a place of worship can bring, it also creates so much of this us vs them mentality. Which is a shame. Like you, OP, I really like places of worship as a location. They're beautiful and serene. I heard a massive organ play in a gorgeous church in the US and it brought me to tears. But... The words that are taught there sow disfunction in society.

I believe that religion, at its best, gives us the vocabulary to express experiences that are beyond words. They spill over into music, song, art, poetry, and ritual. At the largest moments of our lives, we can feel disoriented by experiences for which we have no context; extreme loss or love, the birth of a child or the shock of illness. Religion can give us a connection to countless generations who have shared those experiences. It can give us a connection to something larger, outside ourselves.

Religious institutions can offer a social fabric that is often missing in modern life. There is no other place I can think of where you find a single room filled with families, children, elderly, across ways of life, incomes, and all sharing equal parts in one purpose.

That was around the age I found paganism by doing acid. So complicated and changing. I didn't join any groups about it or anything though.

I was raised catholic and was deeply invested until I left over a variety of grievances around 20 and spent some years agnostic before entheogens brought me to my current beliefs by way of pantheism

And yeah in my 30s I'm considering looking for a religious community that fits well with the fact that I'm quite happy with my beliefs on the divine

What religion essentially does is it lets you outsource stressing about the Big Questions to an institution, and thus find inner peace. I've heard ex-Mormons say that there's something very unifying about everyone believing a common dogma and treating it as real -- they say the warped group reality likewise creates a feeling of one-ness. There are other ways of dealing with the nagging Big Questions, they just require a bit more mindfulness. Then religion also provides other things like a rudimentary moral framework, rudimentary mental health support, a feeling of community (through service etc, also group singing has been proven to controbute to a feeling of one-ness) -- all in one neat and easily consumable package. These are all things you can also have without religion; you just have to be a bit more mindful and intentional about it.