This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.
Having not read the article: “Let’s apply Hanlon’s Razor: Oh, probably it just collects the data locally and caches it until the vendor’s servers are reachable. After a while the data partition was full and it stopped working as this case was never deemed possible when this was developed.”
Having read that the kill command was logged and he found it in the logs: “ok, there are no technical details, so there might still be a misunderstanding, but that’s not what I expected!”
The fact that this isn't considered outright fraud is disturbing. This person OWNS the device, yes? They're not leasing it.
FFS, this should be illegal.
There needs to be a huge neon orange warning on the Front of these products that explains, clearly, that you don't own it, your privacy will be invaded and the company can disable it at anytime. This will stop people from buying this garbage, and hopefully companies will stop if they want our money.
My life rule is, if it says Smart on it, it's never going to be smart. It will always cause trouble.
IMO "Smart" refers to the lawyers that got paid to write a 900-page TOS that lets a company do whatever they want.
No that's called "smarmy".
I agree with you that this should be illegal. I expect this was in the terms of service, though. Since we have no laws restricting this kind of bullshit, the company can argue that they're within their rights.
We need some real legislation around privacy. It's never going to happen, but it needs to. We need a right to anonymity but that is too scary for advertisers and our police state.
Terms of service need to stop being treated like law.
They're not law as long as you can afford the lawyers and legal costs to fight them. Which is, of course, the problem and the system working as designed.
Unless you are to this terms before you bought the thought I don't see how that's a valid contract.
I expect this was in the terms of service, though
While I expect the same, there's also just a reasonablility standard. If Meta and Google updated their TOS to say that users agreed to become human chattle slaves to mine cobalt and forfeit their rights, no court (...right, SCOTUS?...right?) would uphold that. A TOS is a contract, but it's mostly for the protection of companies from liability. Takign active steps to brick someone's device over the device not connecting to it's C2 server (the company had zero evidence this was done intentionally and a router firewall misconfiguration could just have easily done the same thing), is IMO something that should result in a lawsuit.
Just because something's written in the terms of service, doesn't mean it's legal.
Stalkerware is criminal digital slavery. It is sale and ownership of a part of a person to manipulate and exploit them.
I think your comparison to slavery is a bit overblown and minimizes the tragedy of actual slavery. But I agree with the sentiment.
Yeah, mine has it. I have to go into the app once a week and manually delete it.
There's something not working in this article.
They say it "makes sense" for the device to basically send the plan of your home to some online server, because the vacuum is not powerful enough to process this data on its own. This is already a bit horrifying to me, but okay.
And then when that guy blocked it out, the vacuum "worked for a while" before something sent the kill command through an update.
How come is it still working at all if navigation requires that server?
They do process mapping locally, there's no reason for a remote connection other than remote control outside your LAN and data collection.
It's not the navigation that requires the server but the processing of the mapping data.
Which in itself is BS because most of these vacuums come with hardware roughly equivalent of a top of the line smartphone from about 5-6 years ago. They can easily do the raw data to map conversion, even if it's a bit slow and takes 20-30 seconds.
Also if you read the article it specifies that the damn thing is already running Google Cartographer which is a SLAM 3D map builder software - one of the better pro-grade mapping software suites, mind you. So the whole claim of cloud needed for processing is BS.
It's not that it's impossible, but it requires effort, skill, and time. Instead of hiring a bunch of programmers who would make it run on the device locally, you can just throw the same amount of money at Amazon and it will run whatever unoptimised version of the renderer you stole on some random Chinese forum. As a bonus, you got to enrich a multibillionaire and make a world slightly worse place, which is a second and third priority of every CEO after getting money.
My VR headset can create pretty accurate 3D maps of my environment like nothing, and it only uses cameras to do so, so I can imagine it's doable.
Then, yeah, it doesn't "make sense" for that thing to externalize that.
My robot vac will only operate when connected to the Internet so it's only allowed to communicate when actually in use. As soon as it returns to the charger Internet access is automatically blocked.
Unfortunately the manufacturer has deliberately made this as inconvenient as possible. If communication is blocked for more than a few hours the vacuum loses all maps and will no longer even load saved maps from the Tuya app. To use it the vac must be powered down and the app killed. Only then can a saved map be restored.
It's too bad it's so useful.
it’s only allowed to communicate when actually in use.
What's the point? The manufacturer is interested in the map of your apartment and usage statistics. What do you think it's sending when not in use? Does it have a microphone or something?
Since I haven't pulled it apart or tried to decrypt the ssl traffic I have no idea whether it has "a microphone or something." That's the point.
Keeping it offline some of the time isn't effective against passive data collection unless you're willing to take the inconvenient step of factory-resetting it each time you're about to use it. Anything it collects it can just hold onto until it next gets the chance to upload.
SmartTVs will hold onto your data as long as they have storage, even through a factory reset. So if you sell it and the next person hooks it up to the Internet then the data is uploaded.
I know it can be done, so it wouldn't shock me at all to find out that it does happen, but do you know of any manufacturers who have been proven to do this?
Had a kill command actually been sent, or does the device just not work without a remote server talking to it every so often?
Because the second one is probably worse from a "what if this company goes bust" standpoint.
Man itd be great if there was an answer to this. Maybe in an article somewhere. Guess we'll never know.
Don't worry, the quality of the modern hardware is so shitty, it will not outlive the company for long
Play stupid games win stupid prizes.
I have a standard vacuum. I spend about 10 minutes a day vacuuming. Miele has no telemetry whatsoever lol
Ugh. Stop shaming people for wanting to automate mundane tasks. No one's playing a stupid game here, the problem isn't robot vacuums. The problem is that manufacturers insist on holding features hostage on the basis that you connect said vacuum to the Internet, so they can harvest (and then sell) your data. Be mad at that, not at normal people wanting to make a boring chore less burdensome.
Yup. A good robot vacuum is an amazing quality of life thing if you have lots of furry pets. They’re not great for deep cleaning, but they’re fantastic for daily maintenance. Just have it run every day after you leave for work, and you never start to accumulate fur. You just need to touch up the corners and edges every now and then.
The real issue is that the makers seem absolutely laser-focused on packing as much data collection into the things as they possibly can. There’s no real reason for it except capitalism.
Imagine making fun of people for using a dishwasher or a clothes washer/dryer. Those are tasks that can be easily automated, so why wouldn’t you? Until recently, manufacturers were happy to ship those things without the invasive data collection. Pretty much everyone would agree that a washing machine beats spending 6 hours a week hunched over a washboard and hot water basin. And a clothes dryer allows you to do the laundry even when it has been rainy and cold for six fucking weeks, which would make a clothesline impractical. The automation isn’t the problem. An automated vacuum is no different, except for the fact that it has wheels. The problem is the manufacturers shoehorning data collection into fucking everything.
As useful a smart device are, it's very annoying that the company behind it are always either: 1) a scumbag that will collect data and will lockdown the device if people doesn't use it their way; 2)incompetent idiots that can't make a good software to save their life. So by using these device you basically have to pick the thing that you're willing to lose.
It's really too bad because robovac save me a lot of time and mental exhaustion.
I have just purchased a Dreame L10s Ultra and have had the PCB for a breakout board made and components for setting it up ordered. In a few days I should get the last bits and I will be able to root the device and have it connect to Valetudo managed through Home Assistant. Fully local operation with basically the same features but none of the privacy issues. As soon as I can get it connected I will be able to use it just like a robot I actually own should without some random third party being involved in every single operation.
I specifically got one which can run valetudo and it works great for over two years now. Without sending images of my flat to china or the us
As a layman, can someone explain what the ramifications of smart devices sharing your data is. I know it’s bad, but I don’t understand why it’s bad and how it’s used against you.
If they brick your device for wanting privacy, why should you trust them?
You might get some snarky comments, but the way I envision it is that the fuller of a picture companies can get of you (when you’re running a vacuum, when you’re driving, when your lights are on and off, etc.) the more data they have to try and run predictive analytics on your behavior and that can be used in a variety of ways that may or may not benefit you. At this point it’s mostly just to get you to buy things they think you’ll buy, but what happens when your profile starts to match up with someone who commits crimes? Maybe you get harassed by the authorities a little more often? Generally the lack of consent around how the data is collected and how it’s used is the problem most people have.
what happens when your profile starts to match up with someone who commits crimes?
I'd dismiss this as fanciful ten years ago. But we've got ICE agents staking out grocery stores and flea markets looking for anyone passably "illegal". Palantir seems to have made a trillion dollar business model out of promising an idiot president the ability to Minority Report crime. And then you've got the Israeli's Lavendar AI and "Where's Daddy" programs, intended to facilitate murdering suspects by bombing the households of relatives.
I guess it wouldn't hurt to be a little bit more paranoid.
I was thinking about getting one but I learned that they do require a lot of maintenance like cleaning the brushes and you have to change parts regularly. That sounds like more work they just sweeping from time to time. Also, broom has a lower carbon footprint.
I bought one and was disappointed to realise that i still need to (manually!) tidy up the rooms (kids' toys, cats' toys etc) for it to have good effect. yes, i am not very smart.
Ours has needed very little maintenance and has quickly become a necessity because it gets the floors much cleaner that we ever did. An unexpected consequence is that the whole house stays cleaner because we still spend some of the time and energy we were spending on sweeping on other cleaning tasks.
As much as the thing irritates me you'd have to pry it from my cold, dead hands.
I guess it depends on your use case. I know people with pets love them because sweeping hair is a lot of work. Probably the same with kids. For us with no pets or kids there's really not that much sweeping.
remote kill command had been issued to his device.
What the actual fuck?!
Libre alternative?
...when i 'buy' something, should i not own and be able to use it and all functions until the end of it's mechanical processes?..
while this is good, we really don't need all these smart devices in the first place
