News and information from Europe ๐ช๐บ
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"The biggest hurdle in the negotiations was likely whether the new means of payment should function exclusively online or also independently of an active internet connection."
How can this even be a question? As long as governments don't give me free internet access and the minimum of required hardware making it online only would be rediculous. Either it's a working system for all citizens not just those who can afford it or it's a conceptional stillbirth.
It is technically impossible to make it function without the internet. It's called the double spending problem and it can only be solved with some sort of global consensus state
They will probably use secure elements (a small, tamper-resistant chip in your phone) and limit transaction amounts when you're offline. As long as the other party has an internet connection, it will be impossible to double spend. There may also be a warning about an increased risk if you attempt an offline transaction. However, if there is no internet access and the fraudster is able to inevitably spoof/emulate/attack a secure element, the security mechanisms would fail and a double spend would be possible. This will be detected as soon as internet access is available again. As it requires a personal presence, the police should be reasonably capable of fighting such crime.
As long as the other party has an internet connection, it will be impossible to double spend
This is online not offline
Look if the tech is shitty enough to require installing facial recognition in every single store it will cause enormous amounts of problems
How do payments on planes work?
You can scam the company, but if you do they know who you are and come after you. Which is not compatible with privacy
Poorly. The transactions clear when the plane lands, and this is a significant headache for airlines. More modern airlines have satellite internet onboard for this purpose, but it costs a lot to install on an airframe.
Source: worked in payments and asked an airline head pilot.
How do banks work then? Transfers in cash? Or does that global consensus state in fact not rely on realtime communication?
Banks form a network. Information is easier to copy than raw materials. Optic fiber is fast you know
And the digital euro is not connected to a bank? The digital euro is supposed to be a souvereign EU way of paying independent from 3rd party providers, yet somehow they can't do what they can for 'technical reasons'? Where is the digital euro actually happeneing? In some magical cloud that is totally not just someone elses (...a banks ...) computer? Ffs... ages ago we sorted out the "double spending" problem to pay with just our signature, yet now it's technically impossible without a constant internet connection...
Looking forward to the digital euro
I'll celebrate when I finally can ditch VISA and Mastercard. I already don't use them anymore domestically thanks to Twint, but as soon as I cross the border they are currently my only option (even for getting cash).
Had to google Twint. It's a Swiss payment app, right?
If I got this right, the recent Wero should be its โฌ-equivalent (edit: eurozone, not โฌ per se).
The digital euro on the other hand - again, if I understand it correctly - is digital cash. So to pay with it, you'd have to have a specific digital pocket for it and then exchange Swiss franc for euro/digital euro.
Yup, it's our home grown payment app that is widely accepted, from your local butcher and farm store to Mediamarkt and all major grocery stores.
Most of us have Euro accounts too, so exchanging money to use the digital euro abroad is no real issue. I go shopping for groceries and personal hygiene products in Germany once or twice per week.
I'm afraid this is just an excuse for mass surveillance. At least, getting rid of American services is definitely a win.
The EU is not the bad guy you are looking for. You are already being mass surveilled by Visa and Mastercard.
The EU are absolutely the bad guys if not kept on a short leash. I'm not very confident Chat Control would be stopped unless for the massive campaigning to educate them. They already want to weaken GDPR. Are we the US yet? No, but we all need to be very wary of the power creep. They are also looking into age-verification laws to protect the kids. Not all things EU are benevolent.
Completely agree. I'm hugely supportive of the EU, the things it has accomplished and the future potential. However, blindly agreeing with everything it does with black and white thinking is how we sleepwalk into our own authoritarian dystopia.
They are not... Today... I bet Americans said the same years ago.
Oh, they are absolutely the bad guy we are looking for. Constantly working on undermining our privacy rights on behalf of lobbyists from US companies and organisations competing against those US companies now mostly in control of our data, is neither good nor pro EU souvereignity.
Same. But if we somehow manage to make it not go to shit, it'd be just very strong and convenient imo. That's a big if ofc.
Hopefully its not such a shit show like wero is now
Is it a shitshow? Afaik it's "just" super lackluster, missing vital functionality
I have four accounts that support wero. For each, its baked into the banking app. Each is totally different. While one can even generate qr codes for payment, the other only supports phone numbers from my address book, cant even input a number.
Oh, and it leaks my Iban if I actually pay with it.
Yeah I think the biggest problem of Wero is that you need to use your bank app.
Bank apps are usually bloated and shitty, and each one works differently. Just give us a basic and standard Wero app.
That's bad. In Portugal we have a "local wero" and you can choose to use the standalone app(which is much faster) or the bank app.
There even is an official wero app, but you cannot use it when your bank offers wero in theirs.
In my opinion the whole thing with wero being tied to your checking account is stupid. Most people have one. And dont want to give out the account data to their primary salary to everyone.
@oats "it leaks my Iban if I actually pay with it"
What did you expect? Simply put, wero is just a convenient way to make a SEPA Instant Credit Transfer. Of course, the bank details will appear in the transaction history afterward. ๐คท
You mean inconvenient. At this point, it's a lot less hassle just to use sepa instant.
I want to send you money.
"Hey, does your bank support wero? Great. I need your phone number. No, my bank doesn't support sending to emails. OK, I saved it to my contacts, I can now open my bank app and send you your 5โฌ."
vs
"5โฌ? Sure. opens banking app what's your iban? OK, done"
Having to use a 34 character number does not seem better though
15 for a phone number, so only twice as bad.
And then not, as Iban has a checksum so you'll directly see errors, as opposed to a phone which will just reach the wrong person
15 for a phone number? Where do you live too have such a big number? Here I have only 9 and phone numbers are easily remembered, most people know their own number, and bet <1% of people are know their IBAN.
You are trying to invent a scenario where IBAN transfers are simple, but that's simply not true, otherwise payment methods such as wero wouldn't even exist
Germany. There are older numbers that are only 14 digits, bit that's about it, for mobile.
And to be fair, wero doesn't really exist :D
lol
Well, the rollout is a bit sketchy but it looks like it could really work
There is no "reject all" option for the cookies on this website?
The real trick is using Firefox (not Chrome-based browsers) + uBlock Origin and enable the annoyances > cookie banners filter.
Enjoy a better internet!
In Germany its legal to demand payment for reject all, that's what you're seeing at heise ๐คก
It's illegal in EU. There is an ongoing complaint against Heise submitted to Data protection authority in North Rhine-Westphalia. Just because the responsible authority has been dragging out the decision for four years, doesn't make it legal.
Thought heise already won in lower courts. Tbh I dont care too much, I trust ublock way more than any reject button anyways
Heise.de is a crap source. Just downvote it. Barrier-free sources will be posted throughout weekend as they become available.
Puh, the roadmap reads like a 5 year plan. I thought the digital euro was way closer to being introduced. Wasn't there news about it starting in early 2027 a few month back?
That would be Wero, a private alternative of some sort
Too bad Wero decided to make you use your bank app. That's the most stupid decision ever.
As far as I know it was always meant to be launched in 2029
Lol I can't get past the german cookie-wall