MountingSuspicion

Agreed. Thank you for sharing the context.

Yea, but these people are saying they are morally against it but still did it when push came to shove. I'm glad they're speaking about it, but it's so weird to be all "I'm morally scarred" about an action you did not have to take and knew was wrong at the time. Again, VERY glad they're speaking out, but I wish they just didn't do it in the first place.

Yea, I was definitely not denying it. Just wondering why someone who is morally against it would do it in the first place.

I'm glad that they are speaking out, but why didn't they say no? He says they tried to talk their commanding officer out of it, but then they just did it anyway? If they knew it was wrong, why didn't they do it? Again, glad they're speaking out, but it's so weird that they did it in the first place.

I'm arguing against the idea that the left hasn't been preaching working class solidarity for decades. You're acting like it's a novel concept to tell them rich people are the enemy. It's not. It hasn't worked because they are more interested in identity politics than actually helping themselves. Do you think those rather be Russian than a democrat shirts were a joke? It's not about their actual interests, it's about not being woke. They are willing to get covid or measles or bird flu and die to prove they're anti-woke. They aren't interested in hearing about how the wealthy hate them, because they're too interested in hating minorities. If you wanna chat with them, enjoy, but the only way society deals with this kind of thing is by ensuring their bs never gets acceptable. We spent too much time talking to nazis and not enough time punching them and now they have the government.

The left HAS been doing class consciousness for decades. I'm not sure where you are or what's going on in your area, but it's been happening. Compromising and shaking hands and smiling. The left does it and even the dems have been doing it (less so than the left, but more so than republicans).

Obama's main thing was healthcare for everyone which was sorely needed in a lot of trump country. People who benefited from the program actively fought against it and are voting for people who want to repeal it. They got healthcare under a Democrat. Where's the goodwill from that? Obama was as close to populism as we were going to get at the time (he came after BUSH - people forget that). To date, republicans think he's this terrible guy who ruined America. Republicans openly complain about free school lunches. Free food and clinics were staples of the rainbow coalition, and we can't get people to accept them from democrats. Sure, Bernie and Luigi get people excited, but democrats are indeed trying to help working class people. Bidens build back better plan was lambasted despite zero mention of dei or trans people (to my knowledge). Just honest to god help for working class people.

Should pride shut down for however many decades it's going to take for everyone to get on board? Should trans people just shut up about their rights? Is that the finger wagging you're referring to? Because I've been there fighting for federal minimum wage increases and women's rights, which help deep red states more than blue states because THEY KEEP VOTING AGAINST THESE THINGS. I live in a blue state and I make above minimum wage. Me and all my friends got sex ed and have access to the women's healthcare we need. I'm not marching for US. I'm marching for solidarity. I'm not chastising people about their dehumanizing usage of the term "hobo" because I know it'll just derail the conversation about if the homeless should HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOTE. I'm there, telling them that if homeless people can't vote then what about renters, then what about spouses or adults living at home. There was a proposal letting businesses owners vote in local elections if they owned a business in that area (in addition to voting in their home area), and I was gladly explaining to people how it gives people with money and no interest in the local area the power and takes away power from the community. And yet, here we are. Things are not getting better. No hearts and minds campaign is going to fix this.

Tell me, what do you think the left has been doing? Nothing? If so, you're not paying attention or actually engaging in organizing. If you're upset at the finger wagging then please explain what trans people are supposed to do in the meantime while republicans work out their feelings. Just die?

I'm not saying the tactic doesn't work at all, but it's not enough. It's too little too late (though it would never have been enough). Revolution is the only way anyone in this country has gotten rights and peaceful chats over whether or not black people should be lynched in the streets again are not gonna cut it. I'd love to have a president like Bernie, but the fact is they had an opportunity to vote for someone who supported school lunches and expanding healthcare, and instead voted for someone who openly talked about closing the department of education. They don't care. They just don't want a dem. 2020 polling of Trump v Sanders had sanders at 48 vs trumps 44. Biden won with 51 to 46. The numbers just aren't there to support that enough people will change.

Also some people who bought teslas before all this happened having their rates go up. And the people who had their Tesla vandalized or totaled who didn't get a good enough payout from insurance to replace it (if you've ever dealt with insurance you know you're not getting the actual value back). I'm not saying I'm losing sleep over it, but still.

I had a friend buy a Tesla after Elon was talking about buying twitter but before one could objectively say he went full fash, and I told him he'd be embarrassed about it eventually. He went through with it because it had X features or whatnot. Do I feel bad for him? A little, but it's not like the writing wasn't on the wall. Obviously once Elon was with Trump 24/7 he said he regretted it, but it's a bit late for that.

There's no ethical consumption under capitalism, so it sucks to see consumers be targeted, but I understand. I have a phone and I'm sure somewhere child slavery was involved. Does that make me a bad person? Yes, the answer is objectively yes. We're all making shitty choices every day and if one day someone decides to draw the line and I'm on the wrong side of it, I guess I'll just have to cope. That's kinda how I feel about it. So Tesla owners are being harmed too, but I don't know that I'd call them victims of anything except their own decisions. I'm not sure they deserve it all equally, but we all kinda suck so whatever.

I'm in a comment chain with you elsewhere in this post, but I've seen you responding a lot and though I think anyone unwilling to push a "fascists go poof forever" button is part of the problem, it seems like you really believe in positivity and I have to commend you for that. Best of luck with the deradicalization effort. Really hope you're taking care of yourself.

You cannot extend solidarity to people unwilling to recognize or engage with it. It's the ratchet effect/overton window. We stand up for their rights, they don't stand up when we exercise those same rights. Medication gets more expensive? Everyone is incensed. Viagra is taken off the expensive list, but HIV/birth control meds stay on it, where'd the outcry go? VA benefits slashed? Huge mobilization. Benefits for women's shelters slashed? Crickets from them. We end up in a situation where only white men have rights because that's the only time we're all standing together. Until I see more white men fighting for women and minorities, I'm gonna have to ask why you think this strategy is working. (Obviously, #notAllMen or whatever)

I think "have the day you voted for" is the best thing to say here.

Honestly, irl I would be a bit more outwardly compassionate because there'd be a chance for a discussion, but we need to stop pretending like they "got scammed/tricked". Trump readily and openly said he wanted to do a bunch of horrible things, and now he's doing them. Even if you're deep in right wing spaces and only seeing propaganda, he was not quiet about how he wanted to shut down whole government departments. He talked about how they needed to cut back on spending and to my recollection mentioned defunding the irs before the election (though it's hazy because it's been a blur), also closing the EPA and dept of education. Gotta give it to him that he's doing a better job of keeping his campaign promises than the dems. The grown adults that voted for him had access to that information and were probably for it until it affected them personally. Not to mention that even if they were ok with personal job loss if it meant less govt spending, they still were either happy to or didn't mind selling out literally every member of the LGBT community, every immigrant, POC, and women (not to mention the poor white men), just for this agenda.

Teachers that voted for Trump are upset about education cuts and like, HE SAID HE WAS GOING TO DO THAT. Here's a SEPTEMBER 2024 article: https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/20/politics/department-of-education-shut-down-trump/index.html

How can you or anyone, including them, say they were tricked? The guy can't stop saying the quiet part out loud. The best defense I have heard from them is that they thought "he wouldn't actually be able to do that", which if anything, makes them look even WORSE.

I'm not looking for a victory lap, I'm looking for even a shred that if Trump reverses the specific decision that affected them personally, that they would still take issue with him. I've seen some people do this, for what it's worth, and they generally get a much warmer reception.

I'm so sick of (not you personally) people in general acting like his voters were little babies that didn't know what they were doing, with no eyes or ears or access to the internet or even just his actual words on FOX news. It's one thing to say that you didn't understand tariffs (even though everyone in the world was telling you what they actually would do), but to be surprised when he fires government employees is absolutely beyond the pale. Uneducated Trump voters either did it for the racism or "the economy", so either this guy is a racist and that's why he lost his job (good, fuck racists) or he heard Trump say he was gonna cut government spending and he voted for his own firing (lol, lmao even). I cannot think of a reason this person should enjoy any compassion unless they are willing to own up to what they did. Otherwise, they're either still just a racist who didn't realize that voting for a racist would mean he'd be fired, or someone who is getting EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANTED when they cast their vote to lower government spending and apparently still support it except for the tiny little fact that it meant they're out of a job.

Despite all of that, I want to reiterate that IRL I would be willing to engage in a non-hostile discussion with this person and not actively make fun of them. I would push back on their unwillingness to discuss it as a political issue and if they refused to budge about being willing to discuss it then I'd peace out. If you have the energy of the black guy befriending kkk members so they stop being racist, more power to you. I legitimately believe some people can be helped with that approach, but this guy wants to stick his head in the sand and if he got a bunch of laughing emoji reacts and didn't wake up the next day, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. If you're out there doing deradicalization, I think that's great. There's probably better uses for your time, but admittedly clowning on them instead is probably not one of them. (Sorry not sorry for the rant. Everything is terrible and typing on the internet gives me moments of reprieve from the reality of it all lol). Thanks for fighting the good fight, however you decide to fight it.

Didn't they just say they're not interested in a two way conversation? They want support from the people that they voted against the rights of/wills of, because I assure you, plenty of Rs are thinking their cushy fed job should never have existed, and they have no sympathy.

"Views on the impact of downsizing USAID divide sharply along partisan lines, with most Democrats and independents expecting more illness and death in low-income countries (91% and 69%, respectively), and most Republicans expecting positive impacts on domestic programs (72%) and the budget deficit (67%)."