this post was submitted on 31 Aug 2026
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Electric Vehicles

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Electric Vehicles are a key part of our tomorrow and how we get there. If we can get all the fossil fuel vehicles off our roads, out of our seas and out of our skies, we'll have a much better environment. This community is where we discuss the various different vehicles and news stories regarding electric transportation.


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Determinants of electric vehicle emissions savings and costs across locations and individuals Marco Miotti and Jessika E Trancik*

Following is in video description by @MoneyShift

The most common argument against electric cars is that once you factor in battery manufacturing and lithium mining, they aren't actually cleaner. MIT tested that directly, and the answer is no longer ambiguous.

Researchers Marco Miotti and Jessika Trancik built a lifecycle model covering thousands of US zip codes, drilling down to individual driver behavior rather than comparing broad regions. They accounted for battery and vehicle manufacturing, fuel extraction and refining, regional electricity mix, local meteorological data, traffic density, trip length and duration, acceleration patterns, gas and electricity prices, and state fees. The study appears in Environmental Research Letters.

The concession first: building a battery is dirtier than building a comparable gas car, and an EV starts life with a larger manufacturing footprint. MIT states that plainly rather than working around it.

The findings: in most US locations, a battery electric vehicle reduces lifetime greenhouse gas emissions by 40 to 60 percent compared to a similar gas vehicle, with larger reductions in urban areas. On cold weather, MIT found that in a climate like North Dakota, efficiency can drop as much as 50 percent on a particularly frigid night, but the effect on annual emissions benefits is minimal. Miotti's own conclusion was that even in the most unfavorable conditions, EVs still reduce emissions substantially.

On cost, EVs are competitive with comparable combustion vehicles in lifetime ownership cost across most of the country, even without clean vehicle tax credits. Where electricity is relatively affordable, battery electrics tend to cost less outright. The study also found that individual driving behavior matters roughly as much as regional electricity mix, with the biggest reductions going to people who drive more, drive larger vehicles, and spend more time in traffic.

MIT also updated their public tool at carboncounter.com, where you can compare lifecycle emissions and ownership costs for nearly any car on the market.

None of this means you have to like electric cars. Dislike the steering feel. Dislike the brake feel. Want a manual. Those are real objections. The emissions one is finished.

Car news the way Doug DeMuro, Jason Cammisa and Chris Harris cover cars, every day

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[–] Seimhe@lemmy.world 76 points 2 days ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

As long as we have the problem of cars, this sounds like the least worse option.

Thanks for outlining it in the post OP. I never watch videos, but I read the text.

[–] Canconda@lemmy.ca 24 points 2 days ago

a fellow c/fuckcars enjoyer I see.

Ya I really wish more people used the body of video posts. I also prefer to read

[–] dudesss@piefed.ca 16 points 1 day ago (14 children)
[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 8 points 1 day ago (6 children)
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[–] HerbGrower@slrpnk.net 4 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Now my regular bike! Mostly because UK laws are dumb and limit ebikes to such a low speed that its pointless for me to get a legal one.

[–] Bubbaonthebeach@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 day ago (11 children)

No! If you want an electric motorcycle, then get one and drive on the regular vehicle roads. The limits on ebikes keep them as bikes. I live in a very hilly town and a basic ebike means I can keep on biking now that a regular mountain bike is getting to be too much work. If defacto motorcycles are using the bike lanes and paths, we might as well allow cars and dump trucks on them as well.

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[–] sem@piefed.blahaj.zone 1 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Can't you get one with pedal assist for the hills and just go very fast on the flats and downhills with the pedals?

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[–] FiniteBanjo@feddit.online 49 points 2 days ago (1 children)

It's so neat that you cite the source when the video author does not lmao

[–] Canconda@lemmy.ca 28 points 2 days ago

lol at least he named them so I could find it myself.

[–] mctoasterson@reddthat.com 22 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Batteries are a problem but it doesn't take much napkin math to see that, on an individual level, homecharging an EV for 30-50 years is better than distributing and burning the energy-equivalent gasoline over the same period. It's better if off-peak grid energy is used. Even more efficient if the grid power is generated partially with renewables. Or best of all, homecharge from a home battery system that recharges exclusively from home solar. It is the highest initial cost outlay and highest initial inputs of polluting materials, but then the resulting power approaches being "free" for the life of the system, and creates no further emissions in its generation process.

[–] mojofrododojo@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

don't forget the gigantic inefficiency of digging petroleum out of the ground, loading it on to and off of a boat, shipping it around the world, refining it into gasoline, pumping that into trucks, driving those trucks to a gas station, then pumping it all into the tanks to sit around and degrade until someone pumps it into their tank so they can drive it around for a couple weeks, only for SIXTY FUCKING PERCENT TO BE WASTED AS HEAT.

instead, my power company gets photons from the sun, turns those into zippyzappy, and that travels down the wire into my fucking battery where it's used by an electric motor. far, far fewer steps, far fewer points of conversion, and every erg goes to pushing the wheels round and round, not heating up a fucking engine block or providing yet another resource chokepoint for the assholes to fight over.

I'll never understand the neglect these kind of calculations give to the energy storage and distribution required, conversion and losses inherent to combustion engines, it's heinously inefficient and only survives because of nostalgia and legacy idiocy.

[–] boonhet@sopuli.xyz 8 points 2 days ago (3 children)

Uhhh that napkin math forgets to account that over 30-50 years you'll need multiple batteries/cars. Hard enough keeping a 30 year old ICE going these days and usually those spring cheap failures (but many, since they're more complex). An EV battery is tens of thousands even if the car is old and worth <10k, unless you go used with no warranty. All batteries fail eventually, even if they're getting better these days.

It's still more efficient than ICE, but at this point we need batteries that reliably last 20-30 years so the people who can't afford to buy new can use the old ones without worrying about a huge ticking time bomb or doing cell replacements on a high voltage battery at home.

[–] speculate7383@lemmy.today 15 points 1 day ago (12 children)

My 11-year old Nissan Leaf, with the oldest and worst battery technology in modern EVs, is now at 80% battery capacity.

Replacement battery is $6k, installed.

But 80% is enough for me so I won't need to replace it for a long time. This car will easily last 20 or 30 years.

"But I can't afford to spend even $5k to replace the battery when it happens!!!!!". Baloney. What I can't afford is paying 4 times the cost per mile for gasoline, FOREVER.

Set up an monthly automatic transfer in your checking account to a savings account, for the amount you would have spent on gasoline. Call it your battery replacement fund. It will be plenty in no time.

[–] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Replacement battery is $6k, installed.

11 years, saving you conservatively $2500 a year in gas, before Iran war, so you are still $15000 ahead. Given these cars are really cheap used, free car.

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[–] mojofrododojo@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

we really should have mandated huge changes when we hit 60 mile range batteries because honestly the vast majority of people use less range than this every day.

and, atop all this, they're finding batteries are degrading far less than feared. https://insideevs.com/news/748501/ev-degradation-study-rsev/

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[–] SonarTaxLaw@lemmy.world 7 points 1 day ago (7 children)

How long do modern EV batteries last? I'm not sure we have any definitive answer yet but I can tell you as someone who recently purchased a used EV with 60k miles on it, I am amazed at how well the battery still performs. From what I can tell, I've lost maybe 10% of total battery capacity from brand new. I'm now at just over 70k and haven't noticed any material impact of battery degradation. I won't be surprised if I get to 120k or more miles before I need to think about a battery swap or rebuild.

And battery tech is only getting better.

[–] Starfighter@discuss.tchncs.de 5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

While anecdotal I do have some real world data on this: My family owns a 2016 Tesla Model S and we just did a professional battery test last month.

The battery still has 88% of its original capacity left, at currently 305,000 km (~190,000 mi) on the odometer and 10 years of use.

The only maintenance done on the battery was one cooling fluid change & reseal.

Keep in mind that this car is running on at least 10 year old tech and I'm sure that we have learned a lot since then.

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[–] Canconda@lemmy.ca 26 points 2 days ago (4 children)

Might be an unpopular statement on this community: But I was actually still on the fence if current EVs were a net benefit or not.

I'm also torn between waiting for newer makes/models to hit the Canadian market, and buying one now before they start putting AI in them.

[–] Dogyote@slrpnk.net 14 points 2 days ago (3 children)

Get a used EV, you'll save a lot and can get an older model with less AI.

[–] Bytemeister@lemmy.world 17 points 2 days ago (5 children)

Definitely buy used. These things drop like rocks during the first year of ownership. I got 50% off MSRP for letting someone else own the car for the first 9000 miles.

[–] Honytawk@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 23 hours ago

Yeah, buying used lease cars is the most bang for your buck.

Those companies need to write off the next batch of cars anyway, and most of them don't have much km on them.

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[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago (3 children)

The problem with EVs isn't that they're better than ICE cars, it's that they're the least better alternative.

If you're forced to own a car, they're the superior option. But also, bikes and buses and carpooling are all even better. Hell, just owning a smaller car can be an enormous improvement.

buying one now before they start putting AI in them.

I think we've crossed that bridge about ten years ago. Just about every car has a digital dashboard now. And all those dashboards update remotely. If your vehicle doesn't have some AI bloat in it yet, you're always a forced update away from getting it.

[–] bountygiver@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 day ago

Really need an openwrt equivalent for cars soon

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[–] gewindestift@feddit.org 9 points 2 days ago

I'd also like to add that the manufacturing footprint can (and hopefully will be) reduced. So the difference will grow. Fossil cars will not get more efficient. Also fuck cars.

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