But not Palestine's.
this post was submitted on 26 Jun 2024
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The German state doesn't recognise Palestine as a state currently, so probably not.
Only a few countries west of the former Iron Curtain recognise Palestine (Iceland and Sweden, and as of this year Norway, Ireland, and Spain)
Israel can have the Gaza strip if Palestine gets to take control of the rest of Israel. Problem solved.
The new Nazis and the old Nazis teaming up is a sight to behold.
Acknowledging a country's right to exist is the opposite of Nazi policy...
If you have 11 people and a Nazi at a dinner party, you have 12 Nazis.
Maintaining that an Apartheid state has the right to keep being an Apartheid state is very Nazi-like.
A country being shitty doesn't mean they don't have a right to exist. Does Russia not have a right to exist? Did Iraq not have a right to exist?
White South Africa did not have the right to exist. Rhodesia did not have a right to exist.
That's what we are talking about.
Israel has become a Jewish supremacist apartheid state. Its crimes have become so egregious and so entrenched ("facts on the ground") that it is not unreasonable to argue that it cannot be reformed in its present form. In this case it is reasonable to argue for its replacement by a democratic successor state in which Jews and others will all have the same rights to freedom and safety.
So funny story, South Africa was able to end apartheid without not existing.
Imagine that!
Wake me up when Israel institutes universal suffrage and legal equality for everyone from the river to the sea, elects Marwan Barghouthi as president and changes it flag and anthem to incorporate Palestinian national symbolism. If such a country would like to still call itself Israel, I will be happy to be proven wrong.
Because this is what ending apartheid means, buddy. Not just getting rid of Netanyahu, but deep structural change, and a commitment to justice, truth and reconciliation.
no state has a right to exist. None of them.
Countries, as a rule, don't have a right to exist. People have a right to self-determination. These are different things. That said, Israel is fundamentally an Apartheid state. If Israel stopped being an Apartheid state it'd stop being Israel. And if a state needs to treat half the people in it as second class citizens to exist then it can go die in a ditch.
Do you mean you support Russian ownership of Crimea?
No, because Crimea is part of Ukraine.
What makes it different from Israel on occupied Palestine?
Honestly, time. Time eventually changes things and Russia's occupation of Crimea was only a decade ago and the founding of Israel was like 80 years ago. Israel's continued expansion and settlement is wrong and comparable to Russia occupying Crimea.
Then why isn't Germany recognizing Palestine? Those people have been there quite a while.
Only the 75 year old Israel appears to enjoy existence for Germany. Of course supporting Israel's now open and blatant annexation of the West Bank and planned annexation of Gaza.
Germany should recognize Palestine!
But the fact that they don't doesn't mean they shouldn't be actively opposing antisemitism in Germany. Opposing Israel's actions is different than "Israel shouldn't exist" because in the context of Germany and the neo mazid, not existing is literal and includes the people of Israel.
Germany is famous for being a primary enabler of the Genocide in Gaza. Only beaten by America the original Nazis from Manifest Destiny.
Supporting the white nationalist ethnostate of Israel only solidifies the Nazi reputation of Germany being as strong as ever.
This pretense of antisemitism is just a dogwhistle for white nationalists to hide their racism
Ok tankie.
So let me get your stance correct: you think that because Israel is currently committing genocide that they don't have the right to exist as a country?
Answering this question would have impact on my ability to acquire German citizenship.
Then that's your own issue. Germany is a sovereign country who can choose who it wants as citizens. They have chosen to not allow in their country the kind of people who actively work against the right of a certain type of person to exist. Maybe you aren't that kind of person and are just opposed to the creation of Israel in the middle of someone else's country without their consent (which I agree was very wrong to do, but at some point we as civilized people need to move forward and figure out how to live in peace instead of constant fighting), but the vast majority of people who say Israel doesn't have a right to exist are the kind of people who deny the holocaust and think Jewish people don't have the right to exist. Germany doesn't want any MORE of that kind of person in their country.
Now, the inverse SHOULD also be true where they require people to say that Palestine has the right to exist as a country, but that excludes most of the world right now.
But people are conflating recognizing Israel as a sovereign state with approving and condoning their actions. If all countries were held to that standard, there wouldn't be any countries around. The shit my own country does would exclude us from being recognized as a country under that standard.
Denying the right of the Jewish state to exist is not denying the right of the Jewish people to exist IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY as denying the right of white Afrikaner South Africa to exist is not a call for the genocide of white Afrikaners.
Afrikaners have a right to life and a right to safety. They don't have the right to set up an Afrikaner ethnostate on top of the rest of the people who inhabit the land.
Germany is right 100% to combat antisemitism. They are wrong, entirely wrong, to use recognition of Israel as a metric to detect it. It is in fact extremely dangerous and ultimately a generator of antisemitism. Attitudes towards Israel should never be used as proxy for attitudes towards Jews. Anti-semitism is irrational and atavistic at its core. Opposition to the existence of Israel as such is a spectrum of nuanced, but rational positions about land, rights, justice and so on. By lumping in rational arguments with atavistic feelings, they are giving the legitimacy of reason to Anti-semitism.
In fact the majority of European antisémites have zero problem with the existence of Israel "out there". They are more than happy to see the Jews leave Europe for the middle east. American antisémites are fantasizing that Israel will be the site of the Second Coming of Christ who will then turn all the Jews into Christians. This observation alone should tell you everything about why it is stupid and wrong to use attitudes towards Israel as proxy measures for attitudes towards Jews. When the antisémites pass your metric with flying colours whereas Jewish anti-Zionists fail it, your metric is just shit, simple as that.
Germany is making an extremely dangerous choice here, when they really don't need to. They don't have to take a maximalist pro-revisionist-zionism position. They are in fact taking sides in an internal debate between Jews and picking and choosing certain Jews as good and others as bad. Under these statutes Jewish people who speak out against Zionism are automatically labelled as ... antisémites.
This is wrong wrong wrong in every way and it makes the world worse for Jews first and foremost.
So what is your solution to all of the people living in Israel (not in the occupied West Bank)? Where do they go?
They stay right where they are. They may need to pay reparations to Palestinians they displaced however, and any laws restricting land ownership or buying and selling to Jews should be abolished.
Who is the government? Is it an elected body? Who elects them?
Because either you appoint a government that is made from basically Hamas (that'll be peaceful!), or you open elections for a new country where Jewish people are 73% of the population... so basically Israel again but now with officially more territory.
Universal suffrage and equal rights for everyone from the river to the sea. That, as a basic universal principle that any reasonable person wherever in the world can assert as the basic requirement for democracy. If you don't like that, you're against democracy, and I don't know if anything else can be discussed.
The details beyond that are not for me to decide.
I never said I was against that. I'm just trying to figure out the much harder act of implementing that very simple view of the world. If you just say, "here's a new country that's fully democratic with equal rights for all... but it now includes both Gaza and West Bank and is 73% Jewish," you have effectively given Israel an even larger country. Hell, in the US we have universal suffrage and equal rights for everyone from the ocean to the ocean... but only theoretically. Ask a black man how equal he feels in the US, even though he has all the rights and suffrage of a white man. That's how Palestinians would be treated except probably way worse.
The details beyond that are what is actually difficult and why peace hasn't been achieved. It's all fine and good to say, "we should all be happy brothers" but it ignores how hard that is to do when the two brothers want each other dead. I'm in favor of a two state solution along with reparations, but that will also be very difficult to achieve, as evidenced by the many times it has been attempted over the decades.
Your math doesn't really check out. Israel has 9 million people 2 million of which are Arabs, and Palestine is 5 million. A binational state would be about 50-50 Arab and Jewish.
Also, you're misrepresenting the difference between the current apartheid state present in Israel/Palestine and the American problem of racism. One has different rules, different courts, different rights, and different protections there is no universal standard. The other often fails to live up to its universal standard. The latter can be improved, the former cannot.
Ultimately, getting lost in the weeds and the details has been an israeli tactic for maintaining the status quo for 50 years. The way you're nickel and diming the details of what would happen after freedom is like asking Lincoln to produce a full account of systemic racism as a precondition to the Emancipation Proclamation. No! I don't care what the details are and I don't need to care, and I refuse to be bogged down with shitty minutiae while injustice reigns. The current system is unacceptable and must be dismantled in favour of universal democratic human rights. Let the people be free and let them decide. Prolonging an insufferable situation just because you don't know every little detail about what freedom might look like is despicable, slavish and cowardly.
What happens if they affirmed that both Israel and Palestine's right to exist?
They deny your citizenship on the grounds that you are a member of Hamas.
That headline is false. You do not have to affirm Israel’s right to exist.
You have to know that it’s illegal to call for the destruction of the state of Israel. That’s not the same.
Exist? Okay sure, why not.
Bomb a Population to a pulp? FUCK NO!
And thats why I will NEVER vote for any of these fucks again! My Party won't make it into the Bundestag? I DON'T CARE! Because the other Party's won't represent me anyway, so I can easily vote for my small Party which at least represents me!
I'm avoiding all votes in my country due to their (all parties) silence on the current situation. Call me anti-democratic, but, for me, democracy died a long time ago.
Germany equating its historic debt to Jewish people with support for a particular state is an absolutely disgusting distortion of the German obligation of remembrance.
Just like this, they throw under the bus any anti-Zionist Jew.
Honestly, when it comes to Israel/Palestine, the German state should just do what their other genocide victim, Namibia, told them to do and Shut. The. Fuck. Up. Stay the fuck out of it. Say the honorable thing that you will abide by the rulings of international courts. Provide humanitarian aid, help refugees and displaced people. Be a ray of light and humanity, not a stickler for rules and definitions. Don't be so goddamn fucking German for a change.
its historic debt to Jewish people
One would assume this debt would be repaid with German lands and monies, rather than land and money looted from Arabs a continent away.
Honestly, when it comes to Israel/Palestine, the German state should just do what their other genocide victim, Namibia, told them to do and Shut. The. Fuck. Up.
Yeah, crazy how the Germans are full throated supporters of Israel, but you never see them waving big Nambia flags and asserting the rights of African state sovereignty. I'm forced to wonder why, as I flip through my history book of "German Prime Ministers After 1949".
Not accepting israels right to exist is a call for genocide against israel. Israel exists and has the right to exist. You can recognize that and still be against Netanyahus government.
That’s the dumbest take ever. Look up the history of Israel and then tell us again how “it’s just a random state why does Germany care lol” isn’t.
I didn't say it's a random state, I said it was a particular one. It is one particular expression of Jewishness, when others also exist. Precisely because of the history of Germany, the German state has no business whatsoever to play arbiter about which version of Jewishness is the most authentic.
Now you’re just rambling
Wow, so all the jews have to do is start genociding, and all of a sudden Germany realizes, 'hey these guys aren't so bad after all!'