this post was submitted on 15 Jun 2026
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[–] shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip 68 points 2 days ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (7 children)

Tor, i2p if you still have access to TCP and reticulum to bypass TCP entirely.

Edit: I should have said bypass TCP/IP because you need centralized infrastructure to use TCP IP because of the border gateway protocol and routing.

With Reticulum, you self-assign a destination hash using your public and private key pair and then announce that destination hash over whatever connection to the Reticulum network you happen to have. Whether it be Bluetooth, LORA, TCP/IP, serial cable, whatever.

[–] S_H_K@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 1 day ago

Love when people drops this kind of thing as it were the easiest thing to do. Most common users would not have or would ever get the knowledge or the means to do this thing they are aiming for them and then solve the outliers like us. Fighting for the rights is the real solution!

[–] Fizz@lemmy.nz 8 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (4 children)

I can't tell its I can't find anything worth visiting on i2p or there is just nothing there

[–] rumba@lemmy.zip 3 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Compared to the open internet and the slightly dark parts of the internet, there is nothing of great interest, except the fact that no one can easily hunt down what you did while you were there.

The real problem is, by the time you actually want to be there because there is no anonymous access to the real net, they'll ferret out people running i2p at all and block them from doing so.

[–] Fizz@lemmy.nz 1 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

The problem I have it that it doesnt seem lile there can ever be anything. Its so slow dynamic content would be horrible and all the users are anonymous so keeping bad actors out would be extremely tired some.

[–] rumba@lemmy.zip 1 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

Chat rooms exist, Torrents exist, mail exists. There is no keeping bad actors out, kinda of the point of it, no-mans-land that's there for when the regular internet is no longer safe. You group up, trust the trusted. it's not a replacement from the corporate hellscape, it's a free place to retreat to.

[–] Fizz@lemmy.nz 1 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

But if you run one of these places you need to ban over and over and over again to maintain a decent community

[–] rumba@lemmy.zip 1 points 8 minutes ago

nothing unlike here

[–] trackball_fetish@lemmy.wtf 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The real problem is, by the time you actually want to be there because there is no anonymous access to the real net, they'll ferret out people running i2p at all and block them from doing so.

Correct. Its terrifying to confirm my fears with others. Protocol blocking, ddos attacks on the networks, etc..

[–] rumba@lemmy.zip 2 points 1 day ago

I'm mostly worried that at some point they'll fire up a client, note the nodes it's connecting to, send police to their locations, nested wash rince repeat.

I was actually kinda stoked at AI because we could have it locally write semi-plausible fiction with digital payloads embedded. And all of a sudden our social media is based on a database hidden in bad vampire fan-fiction.

[–] Phantaloons@piefed.zip 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Wait until it's one of the only private places to go.

[–] trackball_fetish@lemmy.wtf 2 points 1 day ago

Already is more or less, it's becoming incredibly difficult to stay anonymous. Cloudflare is utilized by %20 of the internet. They no doubt have databases full of device identifiers and associated ip addresses. And thats ignoring the rest of the neo axis of tech companies with their own data pilfering setups and various law enforcement agencies. Can't do shit without verification these days. Can't even spin up your own servers without a cc. I mean technically bitcoin and xmr exist but between KYC laws and ddos attacks against the xmr network.. Lol. Don't let the bastards grind us down, but they sure as hell wish to succeed.

[–] trackball_fetish@lemmy.wtf 2 points 1 day ago

There's a few places.. Torrent tracker. Could use a lot of improvement though, yes. It's always been that way unfortunately. TOR is larger but that makes sense due to gov origination and its associated money.

[–] magnolia_mayhem@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

I had the same problem, then I decided to do something about it

[–] alakey@piefed.social 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Still don't understand wtf do you want people to do with Tor if Tor itself gets blocked (yes, their obfuscation methods are also very trivial to block), not to mention the reality of some countries not allowing any cross border traffic.

[–] shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Russia seems to have a lot of problems blocking Tor if it's so trivial to block their obfuscation methods.

If no cross-border traffic is allowed at all, that's where reticulum comes in. Radio doesn't respect borders, and if you want to kill the ability to use any kind of radio communications to get out of the country, then you have to jam the entire radio spectrum as well as the light spectrum to avoid using point-to-point laser communications.

[–] Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Can those tools be used to post memes about beans and moths?

[–] shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)
[–] Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

So how do we bring moderation to these sites we can access using tor. Need to make sure people aren't just doing whatever they want. That would be insane

[–] shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Moderation is if you don't like what somebody's doing, you block them.

[–] Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

What if we can anointed a single small group of young people and PR team interns that can just dictate to us what we can and cannot do with these spaces. Blocking others also works. Being able to ignore problems is best.

[–] QuandaleDingle@lemmy.world 27 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (3 children)

ELI5, why bypass TCP? I'm looking this up, but an answer might help me and others understand this better. :D

[–] shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip 31 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The big problem with TCP IP is that it requires being assigned IP addresses and the border gateway protocol and other such infrastructure, which is not usable as an individual.

In Reticulum, you self-assign a destination address using your public and private keys and then announce that that service is available to the rest of the network through whatever connection you happen to have to the rest of the network.

[–] QuandaleDingle@lemmy.world 11 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Ok, that sounds brilliant! Thank you! :)

[–] shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip 28 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Yeah, it's actually pretty badass.

I think once the user experience gets simplified down, Reticulum will be an amazing piece of technology. But right now, it's just not very user-friendly with the user experience.

I can use it, and I bet you can use it, but I don't know if my mom would be able to use it right now, as is.

[–] QuandaleDingle@lemmy.world 8 points 1 day ago

I'm convinced. I'll check it out. :)

[–] imgcat@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 day ago

It's also pretty misleading.

[–] AmbitiousProcess@piefed.social 22 points 1 day ago (2 children)

It's not really a "you need to bypass TCP" and more of a "TCP traffic could be censored"... just like UDP, DNS, or really any other kind of networked traffic.

Reticulum isn't necessarily immune to this, it just supports a variety of protocols as a mesh network, so TCP isn't something who's failure would make the network impossible to use (but good luck accessing any traditional website without TCP).

For example, you might be able to communicate from your Android phone running a Reticulum-compatible app to a separate nearby device over Bluetooth, then that device broadcasts a signal over LoRa, which hits someone else's LoRa-compatible radio, which then connects over a USB-C cable to their laptop, which is plugged into their router, which can then send the traffic over TCP, where it's picked up by someone elsewhere using the internet. If TCP traffic is blocked, say, by their local government, maybe their LoRa radio just broadcasts to another LoRa radio, and another, and another, etc, until enough of them chained together is able to reach the recipient. Hence, TCP wouldn't strictly be required, thus preventing censorship of Reticulum through blocking TCP connections. (though this would still reduce how many ways you could theoretically get to people, as if that person ONLY has access to TCP as the start of their connection to the mesh, they'd be cut off)

Of course, the government could also try jamming radio signals, then making LoRa useless, but if they do that and don't block TCP traffic, then you still have options.

Unfortunately, I wouldn't call Reticulum an internet replacement, nor do I think it could ever be without still relying on the kind of large-scale, high-throughput infrastructure we have for the internet today. It just doesn't have enough bandwidth, and it's difficult to run anything requiring low latency if every connection requires hopping through a thousand peers to get to someone on the other side of the planet who, say, wants to play the same online game as you.

[–] shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip 13 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

If I remember the documentation properly, Reticulum is capable of 40 mbps maximum throughput speed. That's over Ethernet or serial links or high-speed wireless networks such as Wi-Fi.

Over LoRa you get quite bandwidth constrained, but you also have a lot of resiliency.

With that said, you can have high bandwidth, but high latency as well because of needing to hop multiple piers to get to your destination.

Once you make the connection though, you can download at a pretty decent clip if all the nodes in the middle can support that bandwidth transfer.

Edit: I should already mention that there is a way to access HTTP webpages over reticulum. Look up rserver and meshbrowser. The webpage is accessed like http://destinationhash/, similar to http://longtoraddress.onion/. Since reticulum is end-to-end encrypted, there's no need to have HTTPS.

[–] rumba@lemmy.zip 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Once you make the connection though, you can download at a pretty decent clip if all the nodes in the middle can support that bandwidth transfer.

Of course, while you're doing it, you're maxing out the connections in between, too. It has problems with scale and bandwidth segmentation. Once you take it off the mainstream internet, you'd be lucky to keep a large neighborhood mesh working :(

[–] shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I think it depends on how those nodes were communicating. If they were communicating via low bandwidth LORA, then yes, I could absolutely see that. But they could also be communicating over point-to-point laser links, in which case you could still maintain a very large connection pipe.

I do see your point, though, in that in order to have a more decentralized infrastructure, we are going to have to accept lower bandwidth than what we are currently used to on the centralized internet.

Considering I already route most of my internet connection over Tor for most day-to-day things anyway, this is something that I am already accepting and getting used to. So the transition won't be as hard for me as it would be for some others.

[–] rumba@lemmy.zip 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I feel ya, I leave I2P running just to support the cause.

If you want a fun side project, you could pipe reticulum over I2P, there are at least a handful of nodes out there.

[–] shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip 2 points 1 day ago

That does sound fun. I currently have Columba (android lxmf/nomadnet browser) set to go tcp to mishmesh, but i have a tor/i2p client called Invizible installed that I use to route most of my internet traffic over Tor on a normal basis as is and I could just turn on I2P and see if I could get Colomba to route over it.

[–] QuandaleDingle@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

I see, thank you. :)

[–] rumba@lemmy.zip 0 points 1 day ago

The protocol is reasonably private. Trying to find exact sources of a piece of traffic is about as hard as it can be. Reading the contents of the traffic is also at a very high bar.

The downside is, it still needs visible nodes to connect to, and the VAST majority of us only actually have access to TCP routed networks for that purpose. The only way you're talking to that reticulum node in Norway from California is because BGP is delivering your crypto stream for you.

If you have a small neighborhood and you're all like-minded, you could use reticulum over HaLow or LoRa network adapters to create a private, IP-less mesh and it could go as far as you can find more people willing to run the hardware. HaLow has enough bandwidth to stream video, LoRa is mostly only good for text. Of course, If someone is doing something like video, it won't take much to saturate everyone's connection. It's not like someone could run a Plex server and everyone could be watching it in the neighborhood at the same time; that 30MBPS can only handle a couple of decent-quality streams.

[–] 4am@lemmy.zip 10 points 1 day ago (4 children)

When your current hardware fails and the only devices you are allowed to purchase anymore are walled garden tablets?

How will you communicate however you want then? Will Elon make a Tor client available on xAI cloud? Will Anthropic’s store have I2P?

Do you think Microsoft gives a FUCK about Meshtastic? Or Linux?

We dared to speak out against our overlords and now they are taking the toys away if we do not stop them.

[–] Rai@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 22 hours ago

If my current hardware failed and I had to go buy a tablet for some reason, I’d… yeah I’m out

(I have 13? 14 computers?)

[–] shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip 8 points 1 day ago

We need the open source hardware movement to be faster as well. RISC V CPUs are already a good step in the right direction, but we do need more.

[–] Phantaloons@piefed.zip 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Better get to making the most of it.

Some of us bought our hard drives before OJ Simpleton got elected. Fill em up now or regret it later.

Ebooks, 100%. Information density first and foremost, then comics/manga, then movies and sure, some TV, a copy of wikipedia, linux isos and tools, more isos, more tools, a few containers and a virtual machine disk of your choice - went with Debian.

Future's fucked. I do my part to donate to whoever I think will turn the tide anyway, but... have a plan B.

[–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 2 points 1 day ago

If it comes to that point, there will still be ways to get software that gets around it. It might require a physical transfer from somebody, but they can't ever cover 100% of the options. Black markets will always exist, and Anarchist or hacker groups would probably help you for free.

[–] rumba@lemmy.zip 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I've totally wanted to do something neat with Reticulum; we just lack a way to communicate video speeds over long distances without last-mile service providers. I'm sitting on a pile of HaLow / meshtastic gear, but I'm too broke (and close to an airport) to put up a good mast and I live far enough in a hole that I can't get to the main artery of RLOS.

I send up mesh nodes on a drone once in a while and I can see a hell of a lot of net.

I2p and Reticulum scratch the general area of the privacy itch, But I worry that the government will decide that pricacy is treason, start a client and start going node to node dropping the hammer on people.

[–] shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Even though you can't put up a mast and are currently isolated from the rest of the mesh, put up a node anyway, and then add yourself to one of the maps with, say, a quarter mile of inaccuracy.

If somebody was to drive to the location you have your node pinned at, with a quarter mile of inaccuracy, they would still be able to communicate with your node.

A node on a mast is great. A node on your roof is good. So, if you can't have great, don't let perfect be the enemy of the good and put up a node on your roof. Your house is still probably around 30 feet tall, so that's still 30 feet of height, and somebody will eventually be able to communicate with you.

Otherwise, you get the chicken and egg problem, where a new person turns on a mesh core node and sees nobody available, so they turn off their mesh core node and put it in a drawer, and when their neighbor gets a mesh core node and turns it on, they see nobody there, so they turn off their mesh core node and put it in a drawer, not knowing that their neighbor has one, and if they had just left it on, they would have someone to communicate with.

As for the government making their own client and trying to hunt people down, you can make mesh nodes out of a lot of things because it's so small and low-powered. I've seen people make security cameras into mesh nodes or solar lights into mesh nodes and when you mentioned this my thought went to a mesh teddy bear. I've never seen anybody create a mesh teddy bear, but I don't see why you couldn't.

[–] rumba@lemmy.zip 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I have. Threw an external antenna on my roof just peaking above the crest (HOA hasn't noticed yet). I Keep nodes set as router-late in my car so when I go driving I can see other people exist.

TBF, even when I'm out, I've never made contact on the mesh. There are a dozen meshtastic nodes here and there, best I can tell it's just a couple other hams, no real comms going on. Even the VHF Ham scene here is mostly dead.

My actual goal was to get a half-decent signal for my kids' bus route and school. The school is only a mile away, but it's not like i'm going to throw a $300 aprs radio in his bag, a $30 LoRa capsul though, sure!

[–] shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Have a look at both meshtastic and meshcore. You say you've already seen some meshtastic nodes, but a lot of people are moving to meshcore, and so you might have better luck there.

Also, with your node antenna up at the crest of the house roof, I would think a mile should be doable to your kid's school.

It may not work while they're in the building itself, but if they are outside, then I don't see why it wouldn't work.

[–] rumba@lemmy.zip 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)

There is 0 meshcore anywhere near me. I drove heltek v3's around my beltway, nada.

I would think a mile should be doable to your kid’s school.

Nope, tried it, no radio line of site. it's a little hilly here and there's a shit ton of old-growth forrest in between.

I've been trying to find a tree tall enough to repeat with clear solar from the south, that's not on someone's property, The only good options are in the middle of a swampy run.

[–] shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Ah, gotcha. Well in that case meshtastic is definitely your best bet for now and as for getting a node up into the tree I'm not sure unless you're willing to go swamp bogging

[–] rumba@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 day ago

If I weren't so close to an airport, I'd do a tethered balloon. I do have a drone so i could lay paracord over a high branch and hoist it up if I had the gear to not get bit by something nasty. If I wasn't so worried about the cost. I could just strand a solar node up there with a long break-away line and just write it off when it needed batteries.