this post was submitted on 01 Sep 2026
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Debating with people in general is something I’ve found to be stupid and pointless as I’ve gotten older, even if they’re not trolls. I don’t even like watching videos of others debating. People come out the other end more entrenched than they were before. As for trolls, I don’t engage at all. My echo chamber is devoid of righties and nothing of value was lost.
debating people is great when they want to actually debate.
they don't thought, anymore. especially online. and on campuses, student activists try to shut down debates rather than attended them and learn something. one of my favorite part was attending lectures and debates and while some where shitty, i always learned something.
people don't believe in the principle of charity anymore either. you can't have debate or education without the principle of charity... otherwise it's just a trying to beat down the opposite side.
not to mention most popular 'debate' is not real debate, it's people being ignorant assholes and doubling-down on it and people viewing that as 'confidence' and 'victory'.
Thank you! Discussing ideas is amazing, even with people who disagree with you.
It can help both sides learn so much and acquire perspective.
What people think debates are is shaped a lot by how youtube and politicians portray them (and of course, in that format, it's a fallacy free-for-all).
Yes, but for a lot of the users here, it makes you EVIL.
Like, I rented out a bedroom in my condo for a few years, according to the average lemmy poster this makes me as morally repugnant as a death camp administrator... when personally I wouldn't even consider myself a 'landlord'.
Anybody can be a dipshit. It's important to know that anybody includes us too.
i've been told i'm a evil terrible dipshit since i was in kindergarten. Got sent to the principles office many times for asking too many questions even as a small child. my own parents would scream at me to stop asking questions and shut up and just repeat what the teacher told me and stop making them 'uncomfortable' by challenging their ignorance.
Most folks just want you to shut up and agree with them and tell them how genius they are, and how The Office is the BEST TELEVISION SHOW EVER MADE. The second you say you don't really like the Office you're a Terrible Person.
What a shame.
I'm sorry you had to go through that.
it's not a shame. it's what got me into Harvard when everyone told me I would never be admitted and I should go dipshit state u like the rest of my peers. most of whom failed out of dipshit state u anyway.
I understand that you survived, but being treated that way is not alright.
i wasn't beaten or murdered for it. lots of people are.
and lots of users here spend their days here posting about murdering strangers who disagree with them.
Well there's idiots everywhere.
I see one in the mirror everyday.
I hope this does not come across as unkind but... if you don't like what you see, then change it?
This is what separates being able to have a rational discussion, about ANYTHING and EVERYTHING with some people, vs. not being able to hold a rational conversation with certain other people about ANYTHING at all.
There's even a name for this principle: the Paradox of Intolerance. Like imagine that you want to not allow any constraint against anyone at all in your society, but the trouble is that there is this one guy who goes around murdering literally everyone that he lays eyes upon. You could implement your ideal vision with everyone else you know, who are respectful and polite, but this ONE guy is preventing that. And he always will. And others will literally die if you don't stop him. Thus you are forced to choose: either give up your perfect principles just a tiny bit, for just this one singular human being, or else he will eventually, given enough time (and I guess ammunition?) kill everyone else.
It is good to see clearly when looking at oneself. But we also need to see clearly when looking at others too. Having just one without the other violates the reality that we are not independent upon one another: the actions of one really, truly do affect everyone else around them.
not unkind, but you assume I don't try.
I call myself an idiot because I am part of the human race, and that implies a certain... inability to change, even knowing better.
Cancer kills. Whether we like it or not, it does.
Fwiw I hoped that you did try.:-)
Things in life are rarely ever so simplistic as to be binary.
To the extent that you try, you will succeed... eventually, with enough effort and perhaps some luck. To the extent that you choose not to, then like cancer killing (even ultimately harming itself), the results of your inability to control yourself will have downstream consequences. Some might call it karma but whatever it's called, yeah, shit that goes around comes around (along with other, different shit, or maybe sometimes it doesn't for whatever odd reason? This principle isn't so much "true" or "false" as a tendency that trends towards happening more often than not).
Though others have their journeys as well - and some are currently in a phase where they are not even trying. THAT'S the difference between a mere idiot (it takes one to know one, so hello there fellow idiot!) vs. someone who is recalcitrant. The difference lies in the trying.
That difference makes ALL the difference in the world. Like what is the distinction between sex with a partner vs. rape, if not consent? Likewise, killing someone who is begging for a terminal ending vs. someone who does not want it - again, consent? And toxicity in a conversation similarly turns upon consent of all parties involved. We ignore that at our peril - e.g. even if Lemmy did not provide a block button, people could simply leave the platform and never come back, essentially choosing the bear rather than the men here.
Please keep trying? If you do, then regardless of whether you ever reach your "goal" or not, you will improve either way - the act of trying, coupled with many chances, helps ensure that the likelihood of such is increased, at the very least, and anyway the pure act of trying is often enough to make us better, compared to if we did not.
There are people calling for your literal and actual death, for the crime of... having a bank account?
They want us all dead. Or rather, the civilization we are in, and aren't too particular about how many others need to die to make it happen.
This btw paves the way for all humanity to become "pure" communists - just exactly and precisely like North Korea, Russia, and China "are".
Once you realize that the principle I am speak of is identical to that of MAGA, using Alternative Facts but just swapping out the rhetoric to be on the left side, you will understand so much better, that you are never going to convince them of anything, bc their goal is not to be correct and instead to simply WIN.
I think debates about things in the science and similar subjects can be interesting. It has to be a scenario where everyone means well and is passionate about the subject matter. But if it’s some echo chamber right-wing “debate” where it’s a guy in a suit with a bunch of puppets nodding along, there’s no value to be had. I’ve had friends send me those Jubilee videos and I don’t want to watch those ever, regardless of their political leanings. Propaganda in the US has broken people though and they think everything should have some opportunity to one-up the perceived competition. That kind of thing is antithetical to progress and education, and is self-serving nonsense.
cool, that's how I see pretty much all 'left-wing' debate too. Propaganda and insanity, with no basis in the complexities of the real world.
A huge chunk of 'progressives' are anti-progress and seem to believe resources are infinite and their theories are flawless and perfect... almost as if they are just as stupid and propagandized as the people they hate on the right...
I wanted to be an educator myself, professionally, but I left because I saw how delusional leftist it was becoming and how it was shooting itself in the foot, always focusing on feelings and praising ignorance as ideology rather than seeking knowledge and leaving the ideology outside of the classroom.
You can't have education and debate and knowledge if your priority is pushing ideology, the ideology is supposed to be subservient to those things, not the other way around. But that's not how people in educational spaces think anymore, many are just ideologues who want to push out anyone who isn't as extremist as they are. Whether it be on the right or the left.
No one is immune from propaganda, but I separate out progressive and leftist movements. Liberalism enables anti-progressive ideas, while identifying as the greater good. While leftist movements advocate for things like equal rights and breaking free from the chains of Zionist enablement. The problem I have with a lot of leftist echo chamber content is that it’s a lot of punching down at liberals that are often open to leftist ideas and movements, which is counterproductive to educating and welcoming them. Fred Hampton saw this and that’s why he was never hateful or inflammatory towards fellow working class people. He correctly identified that all working class are in the same boat, even if they’ve been divided up by differing propagandist camps.
your entire comment here is nothing but propaganda to me. I see a bunch of bullshit terms and name drops and nothing of substance other than rhetorical flourishes. word salad that sounds good but is information junk food.
That’s your take and that’s fine. But there’s educational takeaways from the actions of others. Hence the mention of Fred Hampton—a single name drop coupled with reasoning. If you think working towards a unified working class is “bullshit”, I don’t really have anything else to contribute. Take it or leave it, I don’t really care. I’d say I sound less propagandist than some folks do that swallow communism/socialism and its figures wholesale without having an original interpretation or nuance.
where is this 'unified working class' my friend?
would you care to define it with specific numbers?
because where i live multi-millionaires from generations of inherited wealth think they are 'working class'
There isn’t one. That’s the problem. The US is an amalgamation of bullshit. I stick by the principles I was raised with and do what I can, but I’m a grain of sand on a beach and my views mean fuck all in the end.
Or your a typical leftist... you just spout bullshit and when confronted about it with specific questions you make even more vague and meaningless gestures and fall back on how everything is meaningless anyway.
which is why the left is a shitshow, you have no principles or vision and you're terrified of defining terms and having actionable goals, because if you did that you might be held accountable.
I’m not gonna engage in bullshit debates with an enlightened centrist. I’ve already noted in other comments a multitude of things people can do on a local level in their community. You can go find it because I’m done wasting my time with someone trying to get a rise out of folks.
right, so if i call you on your bullshit, i'm a 'enlightened centrist'
a name for everything. are you doing any of those things you note?
or is moral/political grandstanding on the internet and lecturing other folks what they need to do, while you do nothing but whine, more your forte?
Because the center or right is sooooo much better 🙄. We're not the side advocating for the death of human rights.
meanwhile the righties have also built their echo chamber devoid of uncomfortable discussions also. and the polarization continues to get deeper, dehumanization of 'the others' and wars become a common idea.
Those groups are filled with anti-trans, pro-corporate nonsense. I don’t even know what the point is, other than to make themselves feel bigger when the reality is that they’re just scared. It’s an echo chamber permeated with billionaire-funded viewpoints. No original thought, while also needing someone to punch down at every time.
People never engage in honest discussions, man. They just vomit word salad and claim you're stupid if you can't find the argument in the haystack.
Reddit was horrible for that. I think there's less trolling here, but still the occasional mental issue.
Some people are just passionate. Some people will write a manifesto in response to one line of text and dictate what you meant by it.
🎵 Gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em 🎶
People do that? Weird, then I musta been talking to aliens then.
They used to. Back in ye olden days.
It does happen here on occasion. I've witnessed it.
Of course... the mods usually ban people for having honest discussions because it makes other users uncomfortable. The word-salad users don't like honest discussion because it is scary to them and hurts them. So it must be banned, because anything that isn't their own bullshit is evil and horrible.
You're completely wrong about your opinion.